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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

999 replies

joystir59 · 17/03/2017 20:48

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

OP posts:

SmileEachDay · 18/03/2017 22:40

Indeed rj

funnylikeaclown · 18/03/2017 22:45

Going on a witch hunt for this boy is just as unfair as victim blaming.

Quite right.

NoWinNoFfi · 18/03/2017 22:51

There are good policy reasons for strict liability, but it can be flawed for individual cases.

I'm in the group that has sympathy for the offender too, but I don't think I'd be prepared to rip up the current law over this case.

coconuttella · 18/03/2017 22:57

But that's absurd! If I am 20 and in a club for a night out with a few friends, what you are saying is that no man would be allowed to have sex with me without verifying my age with some external source

At present, it is sufficient for a man to have a reasonably held belief that the girl was 16 or over.... The problem with this is that many 14 and 15 year old girls can dress and behave in a way which supports that belief.... and in this case, even a 12 year old did! If the girl in question had been a few months older (I.e. 13) this would likely never have even reached court. This should be unacceptable to anyone interested in protecting underage girls from sexual exploitation.

What I'm arguing is for the law to be changed to raise the bar on the level of assurance deemed to be acceptable regarding the age of a sexual partner, and that it should no longer be possible to use a defence of simply "having a reasonable belief that the individual was over the age of 16" as it isn't sufficient to protect worldly-wise, but nonetheless immature, 14/15 year olds (and in some cases those even younger).

And if that means that a man thinks twice before having a ONS with a young looking 20 year old who he's never met before because he can't be sure of her age, then that's a small price to pay.... Surely the need to protect our children trumps the right of young adults to be promoscuous without limitation.

Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:06

Men need to understand that all children are a gift and deserve protection. Why are men titillated by the idea of having sex with children- and before you leap on me think about the 'naughty school girl' and underage prostitution?

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Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:09

I really don't care about the rapist in this case- not in comparison with how hurt I am on behalf of the child he raped, who wondered if she might be pregnant afterwards. Believing she was only 16 he clearly didn't even use protection.

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NoWinNoFfi · 18/03/2017 23:11

Believing she was only 16 he clearly didn't even use protection.
That's an assumption. The alternative (which is depressing in its own right) is that she didn't fully understand how pregnancy happens.

keeponkeeponkeepon · 18/03/2017 23:12

Fgs joy you are determined to demonise him.
Everyone including police thought she was over 16. Some thought she was 20. She said she was 16. She consented to sex.

It wasn't his fault. There was no question about her age by anyone. Whoever is at fault, it wasn't him.

I have sons and am sick of seeing men blamed for stuff they did not do. He did not rape her.

Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:14

He had a one night stand with a girl who told him she was 16. I'm sick of men being let off for raping girls. keeponkeeponkeepon I hope you will teach your sons to be more cautious so that they don't end up in this situation.

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coconuttella · 18/03/2017 23:14

Why are men titillated by the idea of having sex with children

I understand you're upset, but assuming a typical man is paedophile going way too far!

Do you believe th age of consent should be raised, as that's surely what you're implying (and a view I think I concur with).

SmileEachDay · 18/03/2017 23:15

Yes, he did keepon. Because she is a child and cannot consent to sex.

Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:17

The age of consent is no barrier for a significant number of men who sexually abuse children, so raising it wont make any difference. Men's attitude to female children is what needs to change

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NoWinNoFfi · 18/03/2017 23:18

He had a one night stand with a girl who told him she was 16.
And if she had been 16, that wouldn't have been a crime. He was reasonable in thinking she was 16, despite her being so young that it was a strict liability offense. That's what makes the case almost unique.

Although in some ways he was actually very lucky...If the police hadn't spoken to her (and hadn't specifically been looking for underage girls to send home), I imagine the sentencing would be quite different.

NoWinNoFfi · 18/03/2017 23:20

Yes, he did keepon. Because she is a child and cannot consent to sex.
It's not quite that simple. The judge seems to have found as a fact that the girl was capable of consenting and did, in fact, consent.

But there's a distinction between law and fact.

coconuttella · 18/03/2017 23:26

There's a lot of confusion about 'consent'.... The girl in question presumably knew what sex was, and she agreed to it.... therefore in any normal understanding of the word, she did consent to sex....

However, legally she is deemed not be able to give 'informed consent', as in she isn't deemed to be able to sufficiently understand the consequences of her actions. However, if the man reasonably believed she was 16, it would be reasonable for him to believe that she could provide informed consent.... my contention is that reasonable belief is inadequate in such cases (as outlined in previous posts).

Woody67 · 18/03/2017 23:26

Anyone remember Mandy Smith? She was 13 but looked 18.

Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:27

We need to raise our girls to be strong, to take no crap, to be street wise and self respecting. Girl power. Prayers and all my love to the 12 year old in this case. And a shout out to all men to be protective to women, and respectful. ONS are really not worth having are they?

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Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:28

She was a child. She could not consent. If a five year old agreed to have sex would she consent too?

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Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:29

Casual sex is the problem here.

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Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:31

Five year old children who have been sexually abused and as a result are sexualised in their behaviour could well agree to have sex. Where do men draw the line? Child sexual abuse is that common that clearly many men don't draw the line.

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NoWinNoFfi · 18/03/2017 23:31

She was a child. She could not consent. If a five year old agreed to have sex would she consent too?
She could not legally consent, but the judge found that she was individually capable of consenting and that she did give actual consent.

I can't imagine a UK court making a similar judgment for a 5 year old (or the majority of 12 year olds).

MrsDustyBusty · 18/03/2017 23:32

Well why would they when apparently it's insane to think that grown adults should refuse sex with children.

coconuttella · 18/03/2017 23:33

joystir

So is a 16yo a child in your argument? If so, then it's bizarre that you wouldn't bother to raise the age of consent.... it would be a bit like saying "murderers will murder whether murder is a crime or not, so there's no point criminalising murder"....

Or is a 16yo not a child in your argument... in which case, why do you have such a problem with this man as his wish to have sex with a 16yo isn't a problem.

Voice0fReason · 18/03/2017 23:35

It's not realistic to remove all vulnerable young people from places that they may be sexually abused by those who 'think they are older'
Any more than it is possible to ensure that no young men misjudge the age of a girl who convinces them they are older.

I've read many posts here blaming the parents for what happened to this child. I blame the person who picked her out of the taxi line and decided to have casual sex with her.
And he has been dealt with, but her parents/carers still hold some responsibility. It is their duty to take reasonable steps to keep her safe. They have failed to do that - that needs investigating.

What I'm arguing is for the law to be changed to raise the bar on the level of assurance deemed to be acceptable regarding the age of a sexual partner
But you haven't offered any substance to that. What steps can a man reasonably take to ensure that the woman who he believes to be 20, isn't actually 15?
Of course he needs to be careful and mindful, but on very rare occasions like this, an understandable error in judgement was made. I don't believe a change in the law is required when in most other cases, the defence of 'I thought she was 16' wouldn't work because it would not be reasonable to have believed that.

Men need to understand that all children are a gift and deserve protection
Yes, and the primary responsibility for providing that protection lies with the parents/carers. This young man wasn't titillated by the idea of sex with a child, he was attracted to what he and other people believed to be a young woman.

Original poster

joystir59 · 18/03/2017 23:35

I would ban one night stands to stop girls being raped. A small price to pay.

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