The most glamorous girls in town are boys.

[PhyllisDoris]

How is this ok, but dressing up as a black person isn't?

Isn't it about time men dressing as a parody of women was banned?

When I was young I worked in quite a few different gay clubs so I've seen some great drag acts but I've also seen a lot of deeply misogynistic drag acts too which are clearly taking the piss out of women. It's more the cheesy old school ones that are particularly women hating.

Even the clever and contemporary drag acts don't sit well with me tbh because I feel like it's based on a really misogynistic tradition.

I wouldn't say I'm offended by them, I'm not easily offended but I definitely find them a bit distasteful and wouldn't choose to go and see them.

How is it different, twatty? (argh typing yourusername sounds like I'm personally attacking you!)

BogQueen But drag queens aren't saying they are women. They are caricaturing women for laughs. No big deal.

How can you possibly think caricaturing women for laughs is no big deal? Shall we caricature black people or disabled people for laughs while we're at it?

Er ...no...

men and women have long been caricatured for comedy and entertainment. Stereotypes are played with knowingly, people take what they will from it..like any art form. There's no appetite for watching black abs white minstrel shows. . . Because the world is different now.

But clearly drag is still popular and perhaps that is because it is a different animal - willingly performed by people with many different stories and motivations.
When I see drag I don't see a personal assault on womanhood. I see a drag act. Why should someone else get to decide for me what I can see on stage -within the law? Why do you want to decide for everyone else, what is offensive? There's a real strain of sanctimony and Puritanism about this current feminist orthodoxy which I find disturbing.

Actually you know what..I don't care. Drag queens are terrible. Ban them.

Go on cowgirl, explain the difference to me.

I'm not getting it!

If you don't see the distinction.Alyosha then that's fine but personally I do!

What's the difference between a woman dressing up to the nines, wearing make up and having her hair and nails done, compared to a man who wants to do it, doing exactly the same?

It's not though is it?

A woman doing it is still herself. Her name, her sex. A drag queen is dressing up "as" a woman- changing to a female name, "acting" female. Insisting on being called "she".

A man dressing up to the nines with hair and nails, fine. But why do they have to say "look at me, I'm a woman"? Why can't he just be a man dressed how he wants.

Using the race comparison. A black man with dreads. A white person growing dreads, fine (although some will still say it's cultural appropriation). A white person with dreads saying they are black, not fine.

Dress how you want. It's the claiming to be something you're not, and mocking it that isn't fine.

It's the caricaturing and mocking and belittling and yes, the othering. It's part of the whole cultural atmosphere where women can be treated as second class citizens. Maybe it's about respect.

If someone is blacking up and caricaturing a black person we are appalled. If someone is caricaturing a disabled person (like Trump and the journalist) we are sickened. Is someone does a limp rusted caricature of a gay man, we think what a hateful out of touch saddo.

But women, nah we are told to suck it up because it is done out of deep respect and admiration for us. Well I really don't buy that. And frankly, gay men should know better than to mock other disadvantaged people.

So many typos in that post.

..

I'm not really sure what that message is trying to say. Does anyone on this whole board believe it is shameful to dress as as a woman?

It is shameful to try and take women's hard fought rights though, and to mock them.

No problem at all with a man wearing a dress. I've said it before on this board, I lived through the 80s, I've shagged plenty of em.

I still don't see what harm it does, if you consider a male that is gender neutral, or a male that identifies as a woman.

I will try and find some history and social context on drag artists, which will hopefully help.

I think if you look at Lily Savage, Dame Edna, I can't recall his name, but the person who appears on HIGNFY dressed differently. I think taste is involved.

You could point your finger at comedians, actually if you have a comedian drag act, what difference are they to a comedian act without drag?

That Iggy Pop poster reminds me of this

Cowgirl - so you can't actually explain the difference, because there isn't one, is there?

One situation is a parody, stemming from envy. The other is when men who want to be perceived as women express that part of their personality.

Why do you think those men want to be perceived as women?

Are they...perhaps...envious of women being able (and indeed, forced) to wear high heels, make up, dresses?

And then make a horrible sexist insulting caricature of it?

I don't see anything wrong with guys wearing 'womens clothes' and such tbh. If this happened more we may not have the 'trans' issue that we have now. If all gender expectations disappeared and everyone could do what they liked then the only 'trans' people would be transsexuals...rather than including people who like to 'dress as girls' on a weekend and such.

Drag often does seem to be a pisstake of women I guess. But I personally find it pretty harmless and quite enjoy drag shows.

Who knows Alyosha. As a woman I wear trousers and Doc Martens and have short hair. I have no desire to be a man, nor do I envy them, or indeed want to parody them. Human emotion is nuanced and complex to the extent that I don't truly understand my own at times.

cowgirl "The other is when men who want to be perceived as women express that part of their personality."

What's personality got to do with it. Do you think being a woman is a personality? I think you are going to say no, so why not be a man, be called Bob and wear a dress, and be called 'he', and wear lipstick? that would break down some 'expectations and gender stereotypes'.

I am sure you look great in your Doc Martins and trousers and short hair. And I am guessing you do not feel the need to call yourself Bill and be known as a man to do it?

Actually, the last winner of RPDR was called 'Bob the Dragqueen'.

Can't remember what pronouns he used on stage though.

Pretty much every professional job in the City. It's not a written rule but you would be considered 'unprofessional' not to have basic make up.
All cabin crew.
Many clothes shops - particularly high end.
Make up counter staff,

Strange because I know people who are professionals in the City and don't do either.

Cabin crew - depends on the airline, definitely not all.
Clothes shops - if you want to work in a shop choose another one.
Make up counter staff - well that seems reasonable to me, they are promoting the product.

Like I said plenty of jobs that don't require heels and make up. No one has to wear either.

reallyanotherone, can't you see you are part of the problem when you are implying that for a woman to be "groomed" she has to be wearing make up and heels. I can assure you I am groomed, hair always clean and nicely styled, I'm clean, my clothes are clean and pressed.

Definition from a dictionary:

1. having the hair, skin, etc., well cared for; well-dressed, clean, and neat: a well-groomed young man.

1. (of an animal) tended, cleaned, combed, etc., with great care.
2. carefully cared for; neat; tidy:

a well-groomed lawn.

What I mean is that some men wouldn't ever want to wear women's clothes but others, my hairdresser included, have an interest in wearing drag. It's who he is, part of his personality.

VestalVirgin, for a model or actress make up is reasonable, male models and actors wear it as well, its to do with the lighting. Heels for actresses I imagine depends on the costume required e.g. if a part is for a homeless down and out they probably wear scruffy clothes, if the part is for a nurse they probably wear a nurses uniform and if the costume includes high heels ..................................

I think you get it really.

really A white person growing dreads, fine (although some will still say it's cultural appropriation). A white person with dreads saying they are black, not fine.

Weirdly, the people who take the hard line "cultural appropration" view on dreadlocks etc. tend to be the ones who shout the loudest in favour of men claiming to be women. Im talking trans, not frag queens, but still...