The most glamorous girls in town are boys.

[PhyllisDoris]

How is this ok, but dressing up as a black person isn't?

Isn't it about time men dressing as a parody of women was banned?

Men who wear lipstick and nail varnish, as Eddie Izzard often does and little boys who prefer princess dresses to be thrown into a prison cell?

I don't think it is actually illegal anywhere to paint one's face black, so, false analogy.

It is, however, acknowledged to be poor taste to paint your face black to do an insulting, stereotype parody of black people.
The very fucking same should apply to women.

I have no problem with boys playing female roles in school theatre plays, and I have no problem with one of the boys (or girls) who play the Three Wise Men painting their face black because one of the Wise Men is traditionally believed to have been black.

I have a fucking problem with racism and sexism, and I trust that everyone who has some common sense is able to tell what is, and is not, insulting and sexist/racist.

Incidentally, the Three Wise Men also usually wear robes. I think I have even seen some in pink robes.

There is a difference between robes and dresses, but I cannot quite put my finger on what it is.

Alyosha if an employer tried to make me wear make up and high heels I'd get another job. Clean, smartly/appropriately dressed fair enough but no not make up and high heels. I've had a few jobs in my life and never been told to wear make up and high heels.

My DIL is a doctor, she doesn't wear make up and high heels. My daughter is a teacher she doesn't wear make up and high heels, my son's ex was a solicitor and she didn't wear make up and high heels. Well none of them do for work but some of them do for a night out, one has a problem that means she can't wear high heels so she never does under any circumstances. No one makes you work for a certain employer, if they make you a good enough offer that you think its worth it then go for it, if not get another job.

Alyosha Do not misrepresent my words to further your argument. Nothing I have said defends the abhorrent practice of blacking up

I am pointing out your defence of "woman-face" is very similar to the defences made of "black face".

I think you might want to reflect more on why you consider one OK and the other not.

That's lovely for you, granny.

Many women do not have that choice.

Gender is forced upon them, and they forced to perform it.

Excuse me for not finding it funny when the things which oppress women are used to caricature us and demean us.

I would imagine a large proportion of audiences at drag shows are female. It's a fair assumption that most aren't offended by it.

Alyosha White men's envy of black people and men wanting to explore the female elements of their personality are quite distinct.

Granny, if it were as simple as "find another job" why do you think so many women are unemployed?

Some of us can't afford to give up a reliable pay packet to make a point about the dress code.

Renaissance - just because some women like it doesn't make it not sexist!

There were female anti-sufragettes fgs.

Cowgirl - how are they different? Why do you think gay people want to dress up as women? You & others have said they are motivated by a desire to be allowed to dress as women, i.e. they envy women for being able to wear high heels, dresses & make up. Sounds like very similar justification to me.

The distinction is clear to me Alyosha I'm surprised you can't see it.

How many jobs dictate that you wear make up and high heels? The only one I heard was about a receptionist in some London firm, well sorry not that many people are receptionists, quite a small percentage I would think, and not all receptionists are forced to wear high heels or wear make up, receptionist at my GP surgery - no, receptionist at my dentist - no, receptionist at Social Services - no, so even among receptionists it isn't universal.

I've been to Sainsbury's today, no staff were in high heels, some had a bit of make up but some didn't. Went to social services yesterday for appointment with my aunt's social worker, no one in high heels no one heavily made up, maybe some had a bit of subtle make up on. Went to the library - no high heels and again some of the librarians might have had a bit of subtle make up but I don't think it was compulsory.

Plenty of jobs out there, at all levels, where you don't have to wear high heels and make up. When I worked for local police force female officers had to wear black lace-ups and although make up wasn't banned you would have got a telling up if you had heavy makeup on.

So again how many jobs are we talking about and how many of them are jobs where it is genuinely part of the job e.g. models, actresses etc.

How many jobs dictate that you wear make up and high heels?

Off the top of my head:

Pretty much every professional job in the City. It's not a written rule but you would be considered 'unprofessional' not to have basic make up.
All cabin crew.
Many clothes shops - particularly high end.
Make up counter staff.

Could probably come up with more if i thought hard enough.

Granny:

Air hostesses are the classic ones where make up, tights, shoes etc are all dictated.

I was a waitress at a high profile event a few times and dress was clearly outlined.

Sales jobs- i went to interview for these positions as a fresh graduate, and was told i needed to look "older" for clients to take me seriously. I was sent away with instructions for make up, clothes, hair and heels.

Even if it's not compulsory, it's ingrained in all of us socially that women should be "groomed". Just read the s&b forum here. Women who present in a groomed way are more likely to get ahead in certain industries.

Alyosha White men's envy of black people and men wanting to explore the female elements of their personality are quite distinct.

Men do not have female elements of their personality. All elements of a man's personality are, by definition, male, because they belong to the personality of a male person.

If you have the cheek to ascribe gender to personality traits, then at least be accurate enough to use the word "feminine".

Men do not have to wear dresses to explore the elements of their personality that patriarchy has assigned as "feminine". They can do that just fine in trousers.

Drag is NOT all about glamour. I've seen pregnant drag, secretary drag, high fashion drag etc.

Drag is a political force. Without Queens like Marsha Johnson- stonewall could have been a disaster.

NOT all drag celebrates women. But good drag does. It celebrates women and laughs with women about the ridiculous things that are expected of women.

No one makes you work for a certain employer, if they make you a good enough offer that you think its worth it then go for it, if not get another job.

In what world do you live?

People don't just get to pick employers in today's job market.

But even if one could just find another employer, that would not make workplace discrimination okay. If there are no laws in place against that sort of shit, nothing stops ALL employers (in fields where this is feasible, obviously) from demanding women to wear high heels and make-up.

Besides, why should it be "part of the job" for female models to wear high heels? And why the HELL for actresses?

What's the difference between a woman dressing up to the nines, wearing make up and having her hair and nails done, compared to a man who wants to do it, doing exactly the same?

To some men and women make up and fancy hair dos, nails etc are seen as a mask.

They're not hurting anyone, Lily Savage, Dame Edna, both were considered entertainment greats. What about Mrs Merton (RIP) is that ageism? Pretending to be an elderly lady?

Live and let live, unless your DH is stealing your best make up, then make him get his own.

Men do not have to wear dresses to explore the elements of their personality that patriarchy has assigned as "feminine". They can do that just fine in trousers.

Isn't it up to the person in question to decide how to explore those elements of their personality whether female or feminine ?

What's the difference between a woman dressing up to the nines, wearing make up and having her hair and nails done, compared to a man who wants to do it, doing exactly the same?

Women don't do it to mock stereotypes of women and put on a performance of being stupid, catty and shallow.

Also, the idea that gay men done up as insulting parodies of women are the greatest feminists evah is risible.

BogQueen In the scheme of all the the things done to women because of their biology - I dint think drag is a big deal.

But apparently that's feminism these days

Actually no, feminism these days is about ignoring sexism and letting men declare they are women... it's just on MN that voices of reason remain.

If they really wanted to challenge 'gender stereotypes' why would they need female names and pronouns and big toys. Why not be men in dresses a d wigs, with male names and leave women out of it.

Big tits! That was a typo not a Fraudian slip!

But drag queens aren't saying they are women. They are caricaturing women for laughs. No big deal.

Maternity services - big deal
Violence against women - big deal
Affordable childcare - big deal
Pay gap - big deal

Drag queens - hmmm - not so much

Did someone actually compare this to cultural appropriation? Good lord