The most glamorous girls in town are boys.

[PhyllisDoris]

How is this ok, but dressing up as a black person isn't?

Isn't it about time men dressing as a parody of women was banned?

In the scheme of all the the things done to women because of their biology - I dint think drag is a big deal.

But apparently that's feminism these days

The idea of men wearing clothes that they want to wear because they enjoy it is fine, everyone should be free to wear what they like.

It's understandable to find it uncomfortable to watch if those wearing what they think are female clothes and putting on 'woman voice' then using that clothing to legitimise making nasty and outdated comments to and about women. Not all drag acts do that but some do.

Glamour is one shackle of supposed femininity that I am happy to leave to those who have time for that kind of thing though, regardless of what genitals they have.

Yy OddBoots agree totally

I think this is an interesting and valid issue to discuss but in all honesty I don't equate drag to blacking up.

Intentionally or not drag makes entertainment from the trappings of femininity - trappings which identify women as subordinate.

So drag derives much of its entertainment value from men putting on sexism's equivalent of the antisemitic yellow star.

I recommended Jeffrey's book " Beauty and Misogyny " as a brilliant analysis of the trappings of femininity.

Would you laugh at a drag act with a man imitating a foot bound women or a women with neck rings?

Those who do not see it as being like blacking up, do you see it more like the white youths who follow hip-hop culture with their clothing and linguistic choices?

It's everything to do with celebrating women.

When it's not, is it? It doesn't celebrate women inventors, female politicians, people campaigning for women, motherhood, etc.

The only thing it celebrates about women is the notion of glamour.

And yes, I do like glamour. But that is the only thing that it emphasises.

Oddboots no, I see it as more like... dressing as a superhero (or super villain) at a comic convention, if that makes sense?

They're clearly not trying to pass as real women. Drag icons are never real ordinary people - they're divas.

Another good example of what I said above is one of the RPDR queens dressing as Little Richard. Who is a bloke. But also a diva.

(that was a fantastic episode, btw )

When I was a kid in the 80s, drag was Dame Edna Everage joking on Parky about how all women "dream of a gynaecologist with a wobbly hand". It was Kenny Everett's "Cupid Stunt" in a beard and French maid outfit. Celebratory it was not.

I don't like it. Can't understand the ridiculous fawning over Rory O'Neill's Panti Bliss in Ireland which included Panti getting a Woman of the Year award (?! Panti is a man's drag persona, not even a transwoman). I wouldn't ban it but people, women, should feel free to critique it without being told to get a grip or humourless or whatever.

Jonesy - I don't think you can tell us how we should view Drag queens.

I view them as highly offensive. It highlights the incredibly sexist attitudes that society & the gay male community have towards women.

Drag Kings are different in the same way that a black person "whiting up" is different.

How on earth are drag queens celebrating women today?!

And why do you think it's different from blackface?

Because should women should just put up with being caricatured, stereotyped and made fun of by men in the name of entertainment. And not just that, but they should like it, to showcase their right-on credentials!

They do parody women, and part of the act is that they emphasise it is men doing it.

I can't quite work out if it is a male/female issue or whether drag queens seem to be an entity entirely outside the normal male/female dynamic that can avoid aspects of sexism purely because, although they are sending women up, the way they do it sends them up too.

Do people who object also object to things like this production of Twelfth Night with a number of gender-fluid parts? Or this production of Hamlet?

No.

Drag queens are making fun of & caricaturing women. Sex fluid productions contain no parody or malicious intent.

In the same way that an all black cast of twelth night or an othello were the two characters were swapped wouldn't be racist. It would be interesting.

Although it is sad to see the few places in entertainment where women dominate (i.e. ballet) with all male actors, but it's definitely not as objectionable as drag.

Put simply, drag is the powerful imitating the oppressed by wearing clothes and other trappings which mark women out as the sex class.

I think there are worse things done to women but I think it is a sign of quite how sexist the world is that drag is seen as entertaining by so many. Drag tells us that women are a joke and that the nasty beauty crap and stereotypes which form part of our subordination are funny.

Megatherium the gender-bending in Shakespeare's comedies was a partial nod to the fact that there were no women actors on stage at the time so you'd have boys playing girls playing boys, it just added to the confusion. It is not the same as drag.

Beach oh yes. Because gay men....white and black....are really powerful aren't they?

And drag is not all comedy. So your comments about women being a joke aren't valid.

Aloysha drag as we know it came out of the oppression of gay men. It never came from a desire to hurt women. But a desire to wear women's clothes, to entertain and to say fuck you to a society that made their sexual preferences illegal.

Beach again...you're another poster assuming ALL drag is about laughs.

It is not.

This thread reminds me of that horrible advert that's on at the moment with men shaking their booty in high heels and denim hot pants.

Obviously it's just hilarious for men to do anything so ridiculous.

www.periscope.tv/w/1mnxekOEyOYGX

This is Katya talking about feminism and discussing how she needs to defer to women just as white people need to defer to black people when it comes to their issues.

She's not an oddity. Many drag queens are highly aware.

Jonesy - gay men face a lot of prejudice that straight women don't face. I can walk hand in hand down the street with my fiance, we can kiss in public. I'm not saying gay men have it all easy or anything like that. I think lesbians probably have it hardest though!

But that doesn't change the fact that gay men are still men, who are still given the respect, higher salaries and (most) other trappings of male privilege. When they perform drag they are still caricaturing women in a deeply sexist way.

Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they should get away with sexism. Would it be OK for a gay man to perform in black face?

Jonesy - if they're so highly aware of how offensive they're being, why don't they stop?

Would it ever even occur them to perform in black face?

No, because we all know racism is wrong.

But sexism is apparently OK.

JonesyAndTheSalad I'm not saying that drag comes from a desire to hurt women.

I'm saying that it lacks awareness (or care) that misogyny isn't entertaining.

Why are high heels entertaining when worn by a man? Why are tight revealing "sexy" clothes entertaining when on a man?

Gay men may want to wear feminine clothes because they enjoy it but I don't have to like it. I'm allowed to find men enjoying p!aying around at a femininity that is part and parcel of female oppression offensive.

Beachcomber is saying it much better than I am!