To wonder why England wants to keep Scotland?

[user1481215005]

Or am I being really thick? NS has been causing no end of grief the past few years always complaining about how bad Scotland has it (despite receiving more money for Scotland than Scotland gives back) also promising English votes for English laws and then changing that when something she didn't like can up. Her financial plan depends on the North Sea oil. If Scotland keeps rights to that it'll last fifty years tops before oil runs out. She just seems to be a constant pain and wants special treatment which wales and NI don't ever seem to get. I do love Scotland but right now I'm inclined to cheerily wave them off and wish the good luck.

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent way to go with your generalisations. It maybe would have been an idea to include the word 'some' in front of Scots.

If Scotland votes to leave, hubby and I have decided to leave too. New Zealand looks nice!!

But does England want a economic disaster as its next-door neighbour?

England itself will be so caught up in its own economic disaster that it won't notice the Scots.

economic requirements for EU accession.

Except for running a deficit!

If Scotland gets out of the UK, they can perhaps shortcut some of all the crap by only having to apply for membership in the EU, which is a well-established process.

Well established and easy or simply are by no means synonymous. You would be forced to join the Euro: something no one would like to do, or keep stirling with no control over it.

Don't forget that you would also need to reapply to join NATO. I can imagine that the UK would veto this unless you kept Trident - a real mockery of one of the Natsies key complaints.

I wouldn't want to be out of NATO, out of the EU and that close to Russia.

Mari,
Perhaps, but I never came across any Scot who said we were our own worst enemy with our demands for multiple unions when Ford wanted to have a single union. Indeed the headline on the front page of the Herald sought to blame England for the decision of an American company.

"In admonishing Scotland for seeking to protect itself from this chaos, the government applies a simple rule: whatever you say about Britain’s relationship with Europe, say the opposite about Scotland’s relationship with Britain."

"A Conservative member of the Scottish parliament, Jamie Greene, complains that a new referendum “would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face. That is utterly irresponsible.” This reminds me of something, but I can’t quite put my finger on it"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/15/theresa-may-dragging-uk-under-scotland-must-cut-rope

Dotty, we are currently in NZ so unlikely to be able to vote but have agreed we'd try and move back in support of an independent Scotland.

Our National (equivalent to Tory) politicians here in NZ are currently trying to argue they've made more rivers and beaches swimmable by upping the amount of ecoli and other faecal bacteria allowed! We are totally 100% Clean Green NZ :-(

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent
You've not come across every scot, it's still a generalisation. And 'the herald' is hardly spokespaper for the nation.
Some scots will blame everyone and anyone for the problems the country has, unfortunately until we only have ourselves to blame for the pile of stinking shit we are in these people won't be happy.
My whole life all I have heard is 'it's Maggie thatchers fault, it's the tories fault' then labour got in and suddenly it was all labours fault, so now we have the snp, needless to say soon it will be all their fault and there will be nobody left to blame. How refreshing that will be!

Emotionally Scotland will be better off as an independent country

Possibly, yes - but financially?

Interestingly, despite so many posing the question, yet again nobody's explained just how Scotland would fund themselves with no access to UK or EU funding, oil revenues in a nosedive and a ballooning deficit

olliegarchy99
She is unelected in the sense that she was not the leader of the party during the GE - much like Gordon Brown who SHE criticised for not calling a GE when he took over from Blair calling him UNELECTED.

I voted yes last time, I will likely do the same this time unless the landscape changes and the Hard Brexit is pulled back in favour of looking at the impacts and wants of each of the nations in the union.

We were told we would be out of the EU if we voted for indy in 2014, it was peddled that it was the only way to stay, and I know a lot of people who feel that pretty much everything Better Together said, and the Vow has turned out to be a pile of crap.

I don't hold any anti English sentiment, there are idiots on all sides. The same can be said now with Brexit and the "little englanders" having pot shots at EU/other nations who have settled in UK. Unfortunately this is the world we now live in, with Trump, Tories and all the immigrant bad views. The MSM are owned by corporations who have a desire, or need for one side to win. Even the BBC are not impartial now. Look at big business who threatened to pull out of Scotland in the case of independence and are now threatening to do the same with Brexit.

Part of me does with that England would get the desired vote by the many who think Scotland should "do one", as we are a drain, a subsidy junkie etc etc. I for one do not think WM will pass that referendum, as surely, if we are such a drain as others have mentioned, why not just cut us off. Unless we do actually offer something.

And for the record, wanting independence is not an SNP thing. Holyrood has a number of pro indy reps from Greens, Socialist parties etc.

Puzzled - how is England & Wales going to manage financially without EU & a ballooning deficit ?

I'll repeat that there is no sense in holding a referendum now. The ostensible reason for holding it now is so that at the point the rest of the UK formally leaves the EU Scotland can "stay" in Europe.

The fallacy is the assumption, often repeated in the 2014 campaign, that Scotland can "stay" in Europe. Scotland is not a signatory to any of the agreements that comprise the EU: the UK is. The Scottish Government would have to be treated by the EU as an independent government and negotiate an entirely fresh entry on fresh terms which would include none of the opt-outs that the UK currently has. In short, the EU would have to create an entirely bespoke accession process for Scotland, leaving out such things as tests regarding its central bank, currency stability and so on, as Scotland hasn't had those things since 1706.

There is at present precisely no evidence that the EU is going to do this for Scotland. In short, the likelihood is that to join the EU in its own right Scotland must become independent from the UK first.

That being so, by holding the referendum now or at any time prior to Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon is denying Scots the right to see how Brexit turns out before they decide what alternative they prefer. It isn't right. She must know this, but she's doing it anyway. Probably because she knows that by capitalising on the (completely justified) Scottish anger at the EU referendum vote she is more likely to get the result she wants. As a matter of politics I can understand why she would want to do this, but it isn't good statesmanship.

I think it's quite ironic and amusing that all the arguments about remaining in Europe are being used by Brexiteers to keep Scotland in the UK.

The will of the people and all that....

I think a good many of the arguments put forward by Scotnats also work for Brexit: self-determination and so on.

However, I don't think the reverse is true. The two unions aren't comparable. The EU hasn't really existed in political form for more than 20 years. Prior to that it really was customs union only. Its purpose and scope is increasing very rapidly, and will probably continue to do so without the UK unless it implodes.

The UK union involving Scotland is stable, and has existed formally for over 300 years (since 1707). Informally it's existed for 104 years longer than that (sinced 1603). Scotland and England were in close alliance before then too (since 1570).

417 years versus 20.

There are parts of modern Scotland that have been part of the UK for longer than they have been part of an independent Scotland.

Unpicking the ties between the UK and the EU really is as nothing compared to trying to unpick centuries of shared political institutions, trade, and culture.

No-one wants to be remembered for the next millennium as The Prime Minister Who Lost Scotland!

You write a lot of sense toad, especially about Scotland's objection to being "dragged out of the EU" when, with independence, they'd no longer be members anyway. Trouble is this never seems to be addressed, just as there have been no answers to the questions about Scotland's funding, should they go it alone

I imagine we all hope for the best possible deal for the whole of the UK; however Sturgeon is surely wrong to say Scotland is being ignored. As part of the Union they chose to remain in they'll quite rightly be considered, but if she thinks everyone will roll over for them - even if their tiny population is massively over-represented at Westminster - she's very much mistaken

It is undemocratic for the vote to only consult those that live in Scotland. It should consult Scottish people who live elsewhere. They are still Scottish.

They are still Scottish

How would you define "Scottish"

Speaking as a German, I always found Scotland a pretty cool country with nice landscape, which I would very much like to be able to travel to and pay with euros.

They are very welcome to join us in the EU.

MS wants control taking away from the nasty English and handed over to Merkel

They're so desperate to get away from English 'rule' and yet are happy to be told what to do by the EU. Even worse in fact laws and regulations cannot be vetoed so they can't say no one else can vote on Scottish matters as they did with the English whilst they keep voting on English matters.

That independence as I understand it rather handing over control to an over bureaucratic superstate where you have no power to to vote anyone or anything out.

I also don't think Scotland would be able to get EU membership on their own anyway.

I dont care this time: they want out let them have it.

I forgot to say that the UK is the most"out voted country in the whole EU when it comes to decision making on EU laws.

We have very little influence at all. An independent Scotland thinks they will get a better deal for what they want within the EU. Ok.

its born to Scottish parents. Born there. Educated there. Like anyone who serves in the army abroad or works abroad, Scottish people who work in another country don't suddenly become English / French / Spanish...
If you could be a national of the country then I think you have a right to have a say.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
This is why Scotland shouldn't be independent. Economically the UK is better together. I felt quite tearful when I heard the news about the new Ref. I didn't want Brexit. Fuck David Cameron.
However I can fully understand the emotional need for independence. I'm Scottish and have lived in England for 30 years. It's not home. Too many patronising remarks in the media and every day life.

A lot of Scots live south of the border. Due to nationality rules, your children's nationality is dependent on your father. (Since1982) If Scotland were to gain independence what happens to your rights to live elsewhere? There is no guarantee that the English will allow leave to remain.
I think it would cause a lot of difficulties for a lot of people.

Fed up with Nicola constantly shouting about another referendum. Also wish a large number of people would realise that not all Scots support this, the attitude of, good riddance, let them go is really frustrating. Having lived through the nightmare that was the last referendum I felt sick at the start of the week when Sturgeon announced this. Absolutely stomach wrenching sick, it was awful before. I was abused at work for the way I was going to vote, the thought of all that being stirred up again is horrendous.