To wonder why England wants to keep Scotland?

[user1481215005]

Or am I being really thick? NS has been causing no end of grief the past few years always complaining about how bad Scotland has it (despite receiving more money for Scotland than Scotland gives back) also promising English votes for English laws and then changing that when something she didn't like can up. Her financial plan depends on the North Sea oil. If Scotland keeps rights to that it'll last fifty years tops before oil runs out. She just seems to be a constant pain and wants special treatment which wales and NI don't ever seem to get. I do love Scotland but right now I'm inclined to cheerily wave them off and wish the good luck.

Scotland may be poorer.
Scotland may suffer economic consequences.
Scotland may be better together.
The Scottish people may not have all the facts.

But...don't Scots have the right to self determination and the will of the people who voted for a party who said they would have a referendum if there were material changes (such as Brexit) should be respected?

Because we'd all lose even more if the Union breaks up. We're already set to lose so much with Brexit.

This. I'm yet to see a good argument for breaking up the union but there are plenty of them for keeping it.

I totally understand why brexit has changed things though as Scotland are being dragged through an economically uncertain process that they as a country didn't want.

Because we'd all lose even more if the Union breaks up. We're already set to lose so much with Brexit

If Scotland can be part of Europe, would they lose?

Isn't that also an argument that Germany or France could have made about the UK leaving - and the UK would have told them to keep their noses out of UK politics?

I suspect May wants Scotland to remain for the moment as a negotiating tactic in brexit discussions. "Look, I have to keep all these parts of the UK happy including scotland and Gibraltar otherwise they will split and you'll have to recognise them as independent countries which some of you don't want to do".

You can almost imagine this as game of poker or bridge..With lots of cards in people's hands.

I think Bridge is probably the best analogy - as everyone is aware of what cards people have in their hands.

I totally understand why brexit has changed things though as Scotland are being dragged through an economically uncertain process that they as a country didn't want

Perhaps you could explain, then, how Scots might feel independence would help - when it would mean having to reapply for EU membership anyway?

I think people do have a right to self determination. However, they did get that choice, and they voted against. You can't keep running referendums just because some people didn't get the choice they wanted. It's unfair on the people who voted to stay, and causes division amongst its own people. That's a greater evil I think. People have to respect democracy, the will of the majority which by having yet another referendum is disrespectful to all the people who voted last time.

I think people do have a right to self determination. However, they did get that choice, and they voted against. You can't keep running referendums just because some people didn't get the choice they wanted. It's unfair on the people who voted to stay, and causes division amongst its own people. That's a greater evil I think. People have to respect democracy, the will of the majority which by having yet another referendum is disrespectful to all the people who voted last time

But surely it would undemocratic and not allowing self-determination if they didn't have a referendum? This was specifically in the SNP manifesto and people voted overwhelmingly for the SNP knowing this. There is a pro Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament.

The democratic way to not have another referendum would be for people to stop voting for the party that promises one.

The democratic way to not have another referendum would be for people to stop voting for the party that promises one

Err ... since the SNP no longer has an overall majority, I thought many people already had? When a party starts needing to be propped up by a pressure group such as the Greens to get its way, perhaps it's time to think again about their message?

If Scotland can be part of Europe, would they lose?

Isn't that also an argument that Germany or France could have made about the UK leaving - and the UK would have told them to keep their noses out of UK politics?

There is no guarantee that Scotland would be in Europe.

Even if it were the EU without the UK would be a different beast than one with it.

And anyway Sturgeon is back pedalling on the EU being her trump card as there are very large numbers of SNP supporters who voted leave.

I cringe every time NS takes to social media to make her political points. It just illustrates the fact that she lacks the platform and opportunity to make them elsewhere as the leader of a small devolved administration in the North Sea with little influence, political clout or importance.She and her her movement just need to grow up.

One thing is - it's political chess. Poker. Prisoner's dilemma. etc etc

... as the leader of a small devolved administration in the North Sea with little influence, political clout or importance

Or population ... don't forget the relatively tiny population

The thing is as well, if she gets her indyref2 and this time loses but by a smaller margin, does anyone honestly believe they won't be agitating for indyref3 in a few years?

Or population ... don't forget the relatively tiny population

YY. 8.3% of the population and about a third of land area. 25% of Europes off shore wind resource. 2/3 of UK fishing catch. Most of the UKs oil and gas. And that's just some of the natural resources.

does anyone honestly believe they won't be agitating for indyref3 in a few years?

Of course they will. And if Scotland wants another referendum they will vote for them again. And if they don't they won't. Democracy.

You cannot keep having referendums until you get the answer you want.

In the meantime, a generation of children grow up in Scotland with a third rate education, poor health care and poverty, as the ruling party have absolutely no interest in anything other than independence. But hey, it'll all be worth it when you finally get independence! What a great start for an independent country; a broken, divided, bitter land, underperforming in every respect, families divided, somewhere that a good proportion of the population don't even want to to live any more.

I don't recognise Scotland any more. We are already making plans to leave in the next few years, it's not a place I want to live and bring up my family. I am not the only one.

But...don't Scots have the right to self determination and the will of the people who voted for a party who said they would have a referendum if there were material changes (such as Brexit) should be respected?

One of the main arguments against Brexit has been that 'people didn't know what they were voting for.' That they didn't know if they were voting for, that they didn't know if they were voting for a hard or soft Brexit or if it included leaving the single market etc. As a consequence the legitimacy of the referendum result has been called into question and demands for second votes etc made.

Because of that I think it's a far better bet for even independence supporters to wait until after Brexit is concluded and people know what they are voting for. Otherwise the legitimacy of Scotland's independence is always going to be called into question and there will be calls for reruns and questions on the mandate.

If it's done after Brexit is completed then it's done and dusted and much harder to dispute. I can't see why independence supporters wouldn't want to do that unless they genuinely are trying to capitalise on uncertainty and are afraid it is their only chance of winning and aren't confident of a win in the face of a finalised deal.

You cannot keep having referendums until you get the answer you want.

You can if that is what the voters want. That is what democracy looks like.

Because of that I think it's a far better bet for even independence supporters to wait until after Brexit is concluded and people know what they are voting for

That is when the referendum is being proposed. 18 months after art,50 is triggered, negotiations have to be concluded. And that is when the Scottish government wants the referendum, after we have seen what the exit deal looks like. No one wants a referendum tomorrow.

Most of the country don't want a referendum. From the yes side it was all just super fun and so full of civic joy and just all about opening up political discussion and getting the nation engaged with politics at last and from the side of the silent majority who don't want independence it was a nasty, bitter, stressful nightmare. And you lot want to keep putting us through that. Again and again and again. Till you get the answer you want. Hang the fact that Scotland is in a state of instable flux till then and nothing is getting done, and that a generation of children will suffer for this. It's all worth it, right?

As I say, not a place I want to live any more.

Most of the country don't want a referendum

How do you know this?

Haven't read the thread, but why is it a question of "us" versus "them". I'm fed up and frightened of all this divisiveness that exists at the moment. We are at a very vulnerable time in our history and need to be sticking together and not pulling apart. Ripping Britain away from the EU will make things very difficult in the short term, and perhaps the long term future. There seems to be so much hatred floating about along with casual racism which is not helped by politicians such as Trump with his ridiculous policies and accusations. His casual attitude seems to make people and politicians think they can do, and say what they want with no regard for other people or common decency.

I'm having a bad morning.

As an English person married to a Scot I don't understand the hatred some Scots have for the English. England doesn't own Scotland or Wales so it not up to us to let it go. We are a union and it is in that union that we became GREAT Britain. Together we thrive but separate will not be good for any of us.

Dont know if anyone has said this, but doesn't logic dictate that a country with a sparse, widely dispersed population is bound to have to spend more per head than somewhere like south England? Why does it piss people off that the spend is allegedly £1000 more per head? What do you think they're spending it on - caviar?