To ask how you feel about Article 50 being triggered tomorrow

[Ehsamy]

or at some point this month?

And I know there is a EU board tucked away somewhere but I'm interested in everyone's views.

Best case: it's the same chaos as before, just with a slightly different set of self-interest groups trying to steer things for their own benefit.

Worst case: Victory gin and PORNOSEC for the proles.

The only thing I am sure of is the Leavers will be disappointed ... and I fully expect to be reading, in 2018/2019/2020 that it's .. all the fault of the Remoaners for delaying our Brexit by obstructionism...

It is sad seeing the tories rip the guts out the uk. Even sadder to think it all get worse. The rich will be okay. Me and family will also be okay. We got out and now will be staying out - we can't afford the wage drop and cost of living in the uk.

LaleLou

Yes it was a genuine question and thank you for your reply.

I agree that most of the things you suggest would be positive.

- A responsible, rational and balanced press

- Education, education, education also in terms of citizenship, responsibility

- Politicians with backbone who are well educated on how to run a country. Not yay saying careerists

However, I expect you think MPs voted to respect the referendum result because they are protecting their careers (correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption). I don't, and I think that TM, for example, believes the gov needs to respect the referendum result because not to do so would be devestating for our democracy and society.

I suppose the point is, we have the option to vote out the MPs if we choose. So how do we get better MPs, through our democratic system?

I don't agree with

- Businesses not advertising in Daily Hate & 'Sun Foreigner Bashing Fun' s onto to promote misinformation and fake news

as I believe freedom of the press is a cornerstone of our democracy, and in any case I think some of the other news outlets, in particular the Guardian, are just as guilty of promoting misinformation, if through more subtle methods (and I say this as someone on the left). Obviously individual businesses can chose where to place their advertising but I don't agree that these papers are the only media not giving impartial, objective news.

But I suppose my question was more about how do we make decisions as a country. We might not have perfect MPs or a perfect press, or perfect education system (clearly, we don't). But at least we have a democratic system where people's opinions are reflected in how the government act, which is better than the alternative.

There is a difference between being a member of the single market, for which you need FOM, and having access to the single market, for which you don't. In that, I think less is right.

However, it's the prospect of the break-up of the UK that is now worrying me more than leaving the EU/EEA.

I'm hoping my mum won't get kicked out/forced out by being cut off from NHS etc. as I think her job isn't a low paid one (teacher in a prison) but I'm not confident. Anyone who says that EU citizens have nothing to worry about has their head in the sand - right now we don't know anything about how Brexit will look.

I am worried about the social impact this is having, about the divisions it is creating, about all the nasty things being said about us foriners, about the uncertainty for EU citizens who have made a life for themselves in the UK.

I feel embarrassed that I have to explain to my friends and family back in my home country why I have chosen to live in the UK. I am not British and after 20 years here A big part of me 'feels' British, but now I am actually embarrassed to live here, where I now feel that I am considered 'apart' from the 'natives', that I have to somehow prove my value and contribution to this country.

I am concerned about how teachers and school staff who state, on their Facebook pages or in face to face discussions, that they are glad they've 'got their country back' - is that really how they perceive my children, as people who 'steal' Great Britain from the native British? I feel angry at family members who have told me that I am Ok because I am from a Commonwealth country but if I was French I would probably have to go back to where I came from.

That is how I feel.

If the UK implodes it only has its citizens to blame, the Leavers will blame the Remainer's and vice versa.

I've never understood blind patriotism, you don't choose where you were born. A world where freedom of travel is encouraged is a more unified place and nationalism never leads anywhere good. I am British but I am certainly not proud of it.

*Honestly some the hysteria I'm seeing on this thread is ridiculous. What will actually change is very little. We will continue to have access to the single market however without freedom of movement on either side. It will however be pretty easy to get a visa provided you can prove A) You are who you say you are B) Your not a murderer and C) You have a firm job offer to come to. No one currently living in the UK will be deported unless they are discovered to be criminal or otherwise a blight on society.

Britain will continue to contribute to the EU in order to have access to single market at roughly the same level as we are at moment however there will be no rebate and no extra money will go to the NHS.

And that my friends is exactly what will happen*

I totally agree with you. I cannot believe the hysteria here. I have seen none of it IRL, it isn't something which our groups of friends and colleagues have even discussed and we were all remainers. After reading this thread last night I asked my DH what kind of thought he had given to Brexit and whether he was worried and he and I both said that a)we'd given it very little consideration in terms of being concerned and b) he said almost word for word what you've posted which I totally agree with.

So there just won't be freedom of movement and thats it?

Sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

And I'm afraid tovel that you and your DH are completely representative of the general population. Not thinking about the issue and just airily suggesting it will all be just fine. That's why the Tories will be able to get away with dismantling current EU workers and environmental regulations and will probably be able to reduce the NHS to rubble. Because most people can't be bothered to give the political situation any thought until it's too late.

I suspect tovel you are quite representative of a lot of people.
I assume you don't have any close relatives affected by Brexit, people who have been asked to move to Europe as jobs are relocated or family who are eu citizens etc..?

MySchool yep I agree with your sentiment there.
I feel the same i won't go and look at my dcs teacher FB pages. Too dangerous

The hyperbole is just par for the course these days.

Prior to the Referendum , the same people were predicting extraordinary economic doom, emergency budgets instant recession, WW3 (Cameron), GDP collapsing etc - all as a result of the vote, not even the actual Brexit itself.

Obviously Treasury + Bank of England have admitted they were wrong now, so thats ok then. . But doommongering continues for the same reasons -partisanship.

Yep I agree tovel, on mn the world appears to be ending. In my rl friends, family, neighbours just going about their business in their normal way. Barely any discussion about Brexit, either from Leavers or remainers.

Tovel ny business (provides services to academia) has died a death. I was booked up 3 months in advance for most of the last 8 years.

I think if you are not worried about it then you are fortunate TBH.

And TBH, in RL I know plenty of people who are worried about it. Even my GP today was expressing his concerns.
Or the lady I hardly speak to at my yoga class that came to see me asking if I was ok and how awful all this was etc...
It's not just MN.

The problem is that we all live in little bubbles. People like tovel or through might not see the difference because well... nothing for them has changed (yet), and no one feels the need to speak about it.
But it doesn't mean that there isn't other bubbles around who are very afraid of Brexit etc etc. It just means you aren't aware about them!

Sigh. It isn't hysteria to suggest that different groups are affected at different moments by major change, because they have different kinds of interest and different positions in relation to said change. It's just basic historical causation, really. As several people have pointed out, there are multiple timeframes at work here. Those whose right to remain has become less certain in the short term are naturally more immediately affected; those whose businesses are highly sensitive to these changes also. For a lot of people who don't have interests like that, or even friends in those groups, it probably doesn't appear like much has changed so far, which is partly because the economic and regulative effects of these changes haven't yet even started really.

The effects will depend on the kind of change we get. If we end up leaving the single market, and reducing workers' rights and environmental regulation, the vast majority of people will be left poorer and more miserable as a result of these changes. If, on the other hand, we use our independence to shore up workers' rights, install a redistributive society, protect public services and save the environment, then we may all be happier. I leave it to you to decide which of those outcomes looks more likely.

devil

I feel a bit sick now.

I've been able to apply for my permanent residence card and I'm sure I'll get it as I've got enough proof to show that I've been 'exercising my treaty rights'.

My anglo-Dutch kids aren't having sleepless nights anymore about me being kicked out, which did happen after the referendum.

I'm still really worried for my mum who hasn't been exercising treaty rights as we didn't know that she needed private medical insurance which is a requirement for permanent residence. She left Holland in 1966 and doesn't want to leave. She'll be about 79 when Brexit happens, I don't want her to leave. She doesn't have any family or friends in Holland anymore :(

She has a comfortable private pension (earned by my father working for a British company!), has considerable assets and is certainly not a 'drain on society', but she might be deported. Do I honestly think that she'll be carted off in a police van? No. But I do think that she won't be allowed to re-enter Britain should she leave the country before she has her permanent residence card.

All very, very sad.

I do accept that Brexit is happening, the majority won and all that. I'm just disappointed that a country I have lived in for 40 years will not guarantee my right to stay and that I'm just a 'bargaining chip'.

There is a lot of animosity towards Brexit voters on MN that I haven't come across in RL.

I have read through the thread again as I am genuinely interested in other peoples point of view. I voted Brexit and live in a Remain area so I am in the minority where I live but have yet to come across a single person in RL who has the kind of rage like I read on here.

Nazi's? Seriously? People believing they are going to be frog marched to some far flung part of continental Europe?

Why do some mumsnetters feel such hatred towards people who support Brexit? when people I talk to in RL (both sides of the argument) are very accepting of the result and want to get the process started. I'm not asking why you believe the Referendum result was wrong - I just want to know why all the animosity?

Probably because our rights and our economic well-being (and that of our children) are being affected by something we don't want and didn't vote for. If it had been a referendum on the reintroduction of capital punishment, for example, the result wouldn't have had any effect on my personal rights (assuming I didn't decide to murder someone).

I've seen just as much animosity towards 'remoaners' @notangelinajolie.
People are going to be deported and you want us to be ok with that. Marriages are going to be broken up as the UK partner wont be able to join their spouse when they are deported, but all Brexiters can say is 'go with them'.
Meanwhile Brexiters say what they want out of Bresit is all the advantages of being in the EU that they just voted against, and thats galling.

I think that TM, for example, believes the gov needs to respect the referendum result because not to do so would be devestating for our democracy and society

YY.

lou I agree some people want it to fail though.

notangelinajolie

^^ Maybe they smile at your face and vent on here

Sick