Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

Remiss of me to forget

FirstShinyRobe

Thank you for starting this thread. I agree with you.

I can honestly see both sides of the argument, but I will say this.

I was raped while drunk by somebody I'd never met before. I came to my senses in a hotel room (again that I'd never seen before) having sex with a complete stranger.

When I heard on the radio about what this judge said, I felt physically sick. In fact, I nearly had to pull over and stop driving for a few minutes. I blame myself every single day for being raped. My mother blamed me too and told me as much. If I hadn't got drunk, I wouldn't have been raped - at least not that night, by that man, in any case.

The judge's words brought back all the disgust, shame and self-blame. I don't need her to tell me that it was all my own bloody fault.

Nevertheless, I would advise my daughters to be careful and not drink too much. I would also advise my sons the same. But the judge has caused added distress to rape victims with her words.

pebbles

I have also told ds1,ds2 and dd to be careful and not drink to much

That's really shit, pebbles

I will tell all my children to not get too drunk etc etc - but god knows, I have spent many a night on the town very very drunk myself. Actually, on those occasions, I was never raped.

I was raped by my (then) partner in our own bed, and I was asleep. It happened more than once, and took me years to call it rape. I was probably drunk on some occasions, sober on others.

I was also attacked (but not actually raped, I fought him off) by my boyfriend's friend in University halls. In my boyfriends's Hall room.

So yeah - male entitlement. To me, to my body, whether I liked it or not. Nothing to do with alcohol.

Which is maybe why I have little patience for the anti-rape advice of 'don't get drunk' levelled at women. It won't keep you safe - not in my experience. And it does, whether people admit it, or like it, feed into the victim blaming culture when it comes to rape. It just does - you may not admit you 'blame' her, you may not say that she 'deserves it' - but it's there implicitly: "she was drunk."

lass

It was a poor analogy for PP to have used and factually inaccurate. My comment was a glib response to a ridiculous thing for thewoodlander to have said. The issues in burglary, assault, fraud cases are very different to rape. In rape allegations, consent is the difference between a crime and no crime. Of course it has to be investigated whether it was consensual sex or rape. Of course the question has to be asked (though hopefully at an appropriate time in a sensitive way, given the authoritues should always start from a position of assuming the complaint is genuine). I am assuming no one is idiotic enough to suggest someone who complains to the police of rape shouldn't be asked the details of it, including consent.

But Pebbles you wouldn't blame your son or daughters if they were raped whilst being drunk would you? It would not be their fault, even if they ignored your advice.

to those who blame themselves.

Mermaidinthesea I was planning a completely different post about responsible drinking then realised actually it makes zero difference to the risk of rape.

Do you really believe that there are no people who would specifically target a drunk women? Or no rapes that would not have happened had someone not been drunk?

Sure JAPAB and also on any other occasion. I was raped when I was stone cold sober wearing a floor length dress and a baggy jumper. It would not have mattered wether I was drunk or sober and I wasn't out at night.

To clarify, nothing offensive I wrote.

I can't recommend rape crisis enough if people want to talk to someone about it. It's not your fault

Elendon - no, of course not. I'd be extremely supportive if that happened to one of my DC. My mother's reaction was horrendous and one of the reasons behind my very rocky relationship with her today.

I consider not getting drunk to preserve yourself from getting raped as the same as not leaving a laptop on your front doorstep of you don't want it robbed.

Doesn't mean it's your fault if something happens, but you need to do what you can to avoid the possibility of the crime.

It's a very conservative attitude isn't it?

"Nice women don't" - it just stems from there. "Nice" women don't have casual sex. "Nice" women don't get drunk. "Nice" women don't wear short skirts or low cut tops. "Nice women" don't put their goods on display.

Just like leaving your laptop on a doorstep.

"Nice" women won't get raped..... Archaic and misogynistic.

“When women’s bodies are on sale as commodities in the capitalist market, the terms of the original contract cannot be forgotten; the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed and men gain public acknowledgement as women’s sexual masters – that is what is wrong with prostitution.”

Carole Pateman

^ This has just been posted on a different thread. It is also relevant to this thread - where the OP has said she wants to discuss male entitlement.

This is what we should be talking about - not a woman's alcohol intake.

V true.

In the meantime, while male entitlement exists and women's bodies are a commodity, I will continue to reduce my risk (not avoid it) by not getting blind drunk.

Being furious about living in a patriarchal world does not rule out every day common sense. It is not victim blaming. It is not implying 'nice girls don't'.
It also does not stop me from having conversations with my DSs about consent, respect, human decency etc etc.

One does not rule out the other does not rule out the last.

A call out to all men to think they are feminists- take responsibility please for reducing rape by challenging other men on it- arrange an event by men and for men to raise awareness of and to challenge everyday sexism and abusive and violent behaviour towards girls and women. And write to this judge to complain about her making women yet again responsible for being raped when rape is the responsibility of the rapist.

Yes, but my point was that the judge had the opportunity to say something different to the usual drunk woman stuff. Why didn't she? Is her court experience distorted from the reality of rapes that actually happen? And if she did say much more about the behaviour of men, why wasn't it reported?

I think this thread might have the answer. No-one really wants to have the discussion about male violence, its causes and exploring ways to stop it, do they? Almost 500 posts and most posters haven't even tried to engage with the premise of the thread. Is it too big a subject? Does it make one feel safe if one can police one's own behaviour? Or something else?

At 59 years old I've spent a long time managing risk in a world full of male violence. I would argue that it isn't possible to both live a free life and at the same time a risk-free life. I've been pretty street wise and looked after myself 99% of the time; but I have sometimes walked home alone in the middle of the night, when I had no money for a taxi and was damned if that meant staying in. And I've had too much to drink occasionally. I've worn all kinds of clothes including 'sexy' clothes. The only time I've been followed was when I walked home alone from work at 5pm on a light midsummer afternoon. So- it is pointless telling women to avoid dangerous situations- men who rape will find a way. Rape is never the victim's fault. WHAT DO WE WANT?
SAFE STREETS! WHEN DO WE WANT THEM? NOW!!!!

Various posters have agreed with your point that the judge missed an opportunity to address male violence.
But yes, lots of people don't really want to go there...

Pacificdogwood - I don't really want to go here, as I know you're a good poster on here, but if you follow the advice to reduce your risk of rape by "not getting blind drunk" - if you were drinking on a night out, or if I was, and you/I were raped - surely it follows that you'd think you/I were responsible partially for it? For not taking that advice to "reduce the risk of being target"?

After all, we effectively "left our laptop on the step" ? I mean, I know you'll say no, it was the fault of the rapist - but you/I were drunk. We ignored the (pointless, in my experience) advice - that translates to courts, to juries, to defence counsels. That's why I just wish that judge hadn't said it.

Men perpetrate 93% of violence in the world. When are men going to own their own problems? Men rape women and children, men kill women and children! I cannot bear it when men say they are feminists- where are the marches of men shouting out to other men to stop raping women and children? when do male 'feminists' ever take any action against male dysfunctional energy?

I go out with some friends in my town from time to time. Sometimes I get a taxi back, but often there's a huge queue and I have a twenty minute walk alone.

Sometimes I am sober. Sometimes I've had a few drinks. My behaviour doesn't change either way. But I know if I was raped on a latter occasion, I would face blame.

That isn't right though, is it? I have not actually made myself more vulnerable?

I agree getting completely plastered isn't a good reason for lots of factors including getting run over or falling into a canal, but we have to be careful how we phrase warning women off drinking too much. If someone wanted to rape me on my walk home, it wouldn't matter if I'd had a drink or not. And it's not my fault for not waiting for a taxi, because I should be able to walk for twenty minutes safely at 11pm in a small town. I hate victim blaming.

Woodlander, no, that is not how I see it. At all.

Not getting terribly drunk does NOT protect against male violence, date rape, rape within a relationship, rape at the work place, rape in any number of other circumstances. It DOES give me more awareness of what is going on around me.

Rapists rape, drunk women do not 'make' men rapists.

Personally, I like to feel a sense of control - I may well be deluding myself.
And yes, I am livid that I feel I need that sense of control. I should not need to even think about it, but as male violence and male entitlement continues to be a fact of life, I do.

I too wish the judge had said nothing rather than what she did say.

I'll change 'missed opportunity' to 'damaging skewed perspective'.

I have worked in A+E departments for many years and I have been in immediate response vehicles in the centre of town on Friday/Saturday nights.
Women/girls get raped or sexually assaulted whether they are drunk or tipsy or stone cold sober, BUT lying semi-conscious in a gutter in a busy street full of nightclubs is just so frighteningly vulnerable

Pacific, yes I guess that's fair enough. It's a fine line to tread, but I can't deny it - every night out I have that advice ringing in my ears. Don't walk home, get a taxi, etc. I guess it's part and parcel of being a woman. DH certainly doesn't have a problem with walking home alone, going to dark carparks etc.

It pisses me off massively that this judge had a golden opportunity to condemn rapists - like the one she had just sent down for 6 yrs - but instead focussed on women's drinking habits.

I give up, I really do.

I presume the judge said something about being drunk and rape because she had just sentenced a man for raping a girl who was drunk, so in that context it made sense. It would be odd if, after sending the rapist to jail for six years, she made a comment about something completely different.

What has happened - as often does these days - is that people are reacting to reports about what she said, rather than what she actually said.