Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

So despite imbibing in drugs and alcohol, the victim was able to scream, a good form of defence. There are women who are raped, perfectly sober, who cannot scream due to fear. What's the difference? None.

None in relation to the effect but your logic is deeply flawed... for instance:

I knew a 30 year old non-smoker who died of lung cancer, and I also knew a 65 year old chain smoker who died of lung cancer... what's the difference... none they both died. Yet if i concluded from that there was no danger to smoking you'd be entitled to think I was daft.

But you can be inebriated after three drinks and sober after 10. Your drink of coffee can be spiked. Or fizzy water.

Women, don't drink at all! Don't go out. Lock up yourselves and your daughters. Cover yourself from head to toe, because being out inflames men to rape you.

"Tell women not to get drunk. You (possibly) stop a few individuals from getting raped.

Tell men (repeatedly) not to rape. You might actually address the root of the problem."

Love this spot on!

Is their a complete transcript of the Judges statement?

The BBC article and the Telegraph article linked to by the OP are very incomplete and are only quoting certain parts of the Judges statement. I've found longer articles where the Judge is repeatedly saying it's the rapists fault and that woman shouldn't have to alter their behaviour etc etc but I can't find a complete transcript.

I'm actually baffled that some people on this thread presumably think I'm a 'rape apologist' and a potential 'victim blamer' because I do tell my daughters (and my sons) not to get paralytic etc. I don't understand how they can then presume what I actually mean is is be careful....... because if you are not careful and you get raped it will be your fault and not the rapists fault. That's insulting, ridiculous and simply not true. It's clearly always the rapists fault.

I'm going to carry on telling my daughters and my sons to take care. I'm not stupid, I understand that most rapes are carried out by people who know the victim but I still think it's safer to be sensible. I am not victim blaming.

Tell men (repeatedly) not to rape. You might actually address the root of the problem.

Again, no one here is arguing that men shouldn't be educated and told, but until this works then I'll advise my daughter and son to take preventative measures.... and besides, for any crime, we can educate and inform all we like, to think we will eliminate the risk is naive.... for instance, society strongly holds that murder is wrong... doesn't stop murder completely!

Why can't people see the difference between useful advice and victim blaming?

Because rape is such a horrific crime, people will always have intense feelings and it's difficult to think coldly and dispassionately about it.

The burglary analogy is a fair one. There will always be burglars, so I make my house secure. I have good locks and a burglar alarm. It's not a guarantee against burglary, but basic precautions mean that the burglar will usually try somewhere else. The police and insurance companies will confirm this.

Unfortunately there will always be rapists. There shouldn't be, and we all hate the idea, but there always will be. So I take what I personally believe to be sensible precautions. I avoid being drunk in public places, and I keep a rape alarm in my pocket when I'm out alone. If that means that the stranger rapist, like the burglar, tries someone else, then I've protected myself. If that's selfish, then sorry. The other person will of course be totally innocent and should not be blamed in any way.

These precautions won't of course help with the other potential rapes - office acquaintances, ex partners etc. But I will always try to protect myself in whatever situation I find myself, and being drunk out in public is one I really can do something about.

I would tell my children of both sexes not to get stupidly drunk. It leaves you vulnerable and incapable.

I do believe that rape is only the fault of the perpetrator, but I'd rather it didn't happen to any of my family (or anyone else, obviously!).

Not protecting yourself, to make a stand, is misguided.

Eldon, there is enjoying a few drinks out, and getting totally inebriated that you are slumped on the floor. Irresponsible behaviour for both sexes don't you think!

Exactly so can we stop the shit message of women don't drink due to rape and change it to people don't drink to excess due to an increased risk of accidents occurring.

In an ideal world we should all be able to go out and get as s**tfaced as we like without anyone taking advantage of us. But that's not the world we live in. While we work to change that I think this judge was spot on telling women, essentially, not to make themselves vulnerable.

we can educate and inform all we like, to think we will eliminate the risk is naive.... for instance, society strongly holds that murder is wrong... doesn't stop murder completely!

Sorry, I don't accept this.

Murder is not acceptable. Rape is, culturally speaking. It just is. It happens too often, to too many women. The statistics bear this out.

And besides... as I said upthread, drink driving used to be socially acceptable. Until there was a concerted effort to change thinking, and now it's no longer acceptable. At all.

Because people were educated.

Let's try it with this issue, and just see if it works.

People don't even seem to be willing to try. This thread proves it.

In an ideal world we should all be able to go out and get as stfaced as we like without anyone taking advantage of us. But that's not the world we live in. While we work to change that I think this judge was spot on telling women, essentially, not to make themselves vulnerable.

But why not also take the opportunity to send a message out to men, as well?!

TheDowagerCuntess
^Give a person a fish. They eat for a day. Teach a person to fish. They eat for a lifetime.

Tell women not to get drunk. You (possibly) stop a few individuals from getting raped.^
Tell men (repeatedly) not to rape. You might actually address the root of the problem
It's worth a try, surely. This is what I don't get. Why are people SO adverse to even giving it a try...?

You are asking 'Why are people SO adverse to giving it a try when not a single person on this thread has said anything of the sort.
Also telling women to be cafeful about getting paralytic in situations where they might make themselves vulnerable doesn't mean you can't tell 'Men not to rape'.

AreYouNice You've touched on what I intended the thread to be about. The headlines and the focus. Surely she knew what the message would be when reported, therefore I can only assume this was her intention.

But why? Especially when one good way of preventing future rapes is to have rapists in prison. This message doesn't work. It feeds into the "well, what did she expect being that drunk?" mindset which feeds the beliefs of both rapists (not always driven by power, but also by entitlement), rape victims (so they don't report), the police & the CPS (likelihood of getting a case to court) and jurors (how they approach reasonable doubt).

The judge should know all that. She should also know how it would be reported. When I started this thread, I thought it was a shame that she missed an opportunity. Now I'm actually irritated that she has reinforced the barriers to rape convictions. It's the first item on Radio 4 news now. Drip, drip, drip of the rape myth reinforcement.

Having your home burgled is not comparable to being violently attacked.

What is clear from posts on here is that if you took all precautions and were raped, after a night out, you would be believed. But only if you suffered horrendous injuries. If you didn't fight back? Heaven help you. Raped in your marital bed? Get over it.

we can educate and inform all we like, to think we will eliminate the risk is naive.... for instance, society strongly holds that murder is wrong... doesn't stop murder completely!

Murder is not acceptable. Rape is, culturally speaking. It just is. It happens too often, to too many women. The statistics bear this out.

But that's my point.... even if rape were as universally regarded as wrong as murder, some would still rape.

Let's try it with this issue, and just see if it works.

Agreed... but until things improve I will ask my children to take sensible precautions.

I agree that men should have it hammered home that they should not rape.

I still wouldn't leave myself vulnerable though.

Surely she knew what the message would be when reported, therefore I can only assume this was her intention.

Was that meant to be a nod to how rapists speak? Or is that actually an opinion you will stand behind?

Surely she knew the message she was giving out with that short skirt and drinking so much... and that look, therefore I can only assume this was her intention.

I am all for educating men on consent and teaching them not to rape. It will not eliminate rape.

Objecting to helping women to protect themselves as best they can on the basis that there will always be men wanting to rape doesn't seem to me to be promoting women's interests.

My priority is to minimise the number of women who suffer from this awful crime. I am stunned at the number of people on this thread who seem willing to prioritise proving a point about "we should tell men not to rape" over the protection of women. Sorry but that's what it amounts to.

we can educate and inform all we like, to think we will eliminate the risk is naive

EXACTLY

FirstShiney

Have you actually read articles with more of the Judges statement in. She was extremely careful with what she said. She CLEARLY puts 100% of the blame on the rapists and she repeats and repeats the fact that woman shouldn't have to take any 'precautions'. I think she was trying to anticipate how her statement would be reported but just didn't quite anticipate how much more 'interesting' a controversial Judge comment article would be to newspapers.

Have you even seen a complete transcript of her statement?

But how should women be protected? Keep them in the home? If there is always going to be rapists then why let your daughter out at all?

Men don't rape should be the message. And if that hurts some men's feelings then so be it.

Sorry my last sentence sounded stroppy. I didn't mean it to.

elendon

I don't think anyone is concerned about hurting men's feelings. But with the fact that even with the message to men of don't rape, women will still be at risk.

Oh, come on. I cannot believe that a judge of her years would not know that the headlines would be about drunk women. That's pretty much always the message to women (see numerous previous threads about police posters, judges comments, trial outcomes etc.)

That details of that particular trial were perfect for comment about the behaviour of predatory men.

Even if women never drank again ever, If they never left their homes the drop in rapes would be miniscule. The judge is basically saying but which is a get out clause and victim blaming.