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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

999 replies

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:42

I'm a nervous wreck right now Sad

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared Sad.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Pawpainting · 14/03/2017 19:58

From the website of the shelter

"We offer short-term shelter for 13 homeless women and their children. It's on a first come, first serve basis, so women seeking shelter should call us every day to see if we have any space."

I wonder how many women and children have been turned away due to a room being taken up a childless man

NoWinNoFfi · 14/03/2017 20:00

Pawpainting - thanks, had only been able to find that it was a homeless shelter, but couldn't find which specific shelter.

RakingUpBadMemories · 14/03/2017 20:00

So if this one passed under the radar, people who objected would really only have themselves to blame.

Are you sure you mean that it would be the fault of those who didn't manage to get their objections taken seriously, rather than the fault of those who actually voted for it?

Really? If it's passed, it'll be the fault of those who know that even asking to discuss it means they get a nice load of insults, dismissals and rape threats thrown their way, rather than the fault of those who issue the insults, rape threats and dismissals?

Pawpainting · 14/03/2017 20:06

He also recently raised $2000 in online donations to buy expensive audio equipment for his podcast. While living in a shelter for women and children. Totally taking the piss Angry

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 14/03/2017 20:10

And then they have to be debated in the House of Commons and the House of Lords, both of which are open to the press and the public.

Based on the "debates" so far, most MPs are so busy being right on & virtue signalling that there is virtually no-one speaking about the potential adverse impact on women (as a sex class) and girls, Caroline Flint being the exception. Does it count as debate if women's concerns are barely acknowledged? It certainly isn't effective or balanced.

jellyfrizz · 14/03/2017 20:13

But why not just make it illegal to discriminate on grounds of dress or makeup? Wouldn't that do more to free people from gender constraints?

^^ This

icyfront · 14/03/2017 20:37

The Gender Identity Bill almost certainly won’t make it into law. But the problem is that it’s helped to focus the attention of a lot of people, especially the media, on the rights of transwomen to be regarded as having the same rights as women. That includes transwomen having the right to access the safe places that were previously reserved for women.

Most transwomen just want to live quiet lives, but the trans issue has been taken over by very vociferous people who seem to be intent on pushing the boundaries as far as possible. What this proposed Bill has given them is an extra push for their rights to be more important than women’s rights. And many organisations have already modified their policies so that the focus is on what someone reports as their gender identity rather than their biology.

There are so very many threads here on this issue that I can’t recall which thread I read it on, but a poster reported that their NHS hospital has issued new guidelines, and instead of putting patients in a single-sex ward according to their biology, the procedure is now to place people on wards according to their gender preference. If a female identifies as a man then he’ll be placed in a single-sex male ward, which might cause some discomfort to the men there. But if a male identifies as a woman then she’ll be placed in a single-sex female ward. Given that most transwomen keep their penises (and I can understand why, as that’s very tricky surgery anyway) what can happen is that an intact male is placed in a 6-bedded ward alongside five women.

Most women won’t have to go to a refuge or a rape crisis centre, so won’t have to think about a transwoman insisting on their right to be there because that’s how they identify.

But any woman could end up in an NHS hospital ward for all manner of reasons. The NHS ended up spending huge amounts of money to ensure single-sex wards on the basis of dignity (for men as well as women) but this Bill, even though it won’t become law (yet), undermines all of that.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 14/03/2017 20:43

But why not just make it illegal to discriminate on grounds of dress or makeup? Wouldn't that do more to free people from gender constraints?

Whilst I support the sentiment here, we all know there's going to be some joker that turns up to work in full 'Walking Dead' zombie make-up to test the law. It would be difficult to demarcate the line between "acceptable" presentation vs taking things too far, as context will be a factor.

grannytomine · 14/03/2017 20:54

I was in hospital last month and the ward was mixed sex. Toilets and showers were unisex. I was in a bay with another woman, the bay was open to the ward and the bay behind me had six men in it. I thought mixed wards, with single sex bays were common in hospitals, isn't that so?

The ward I was in was mainly men, just two of us in a bay and one woman in a side room. I think there were 14 men but it might have been 12 or 13 but something round that figure.

icyfront · 14/03/2017 21:31

grannytomine - I probably wasn't being specific enough. In the hospital I used to work in, there were wards which were specific to specialties, e.g. urology, orthopaedics. In those wards there were mostly four 6-bedded bays which were single-sex. People were placed in each 6-bedded bay according to sex (biology). What could happen is that a self-identifying transwoman (biologically male) could be placed in the bay designated for women. And there's nothing you could do about that.

dangermouseisace · 14/03/2017 21:43

granny I think in general hospitals where people are ill it's not so bad. If you are in a psychiatric hospital it is downright dangerous to have men mixed with women.

Megatherium · 14/03/2017 22:33

So if this one passed under the radar, people who objected would really only have themselves to blame.

Are you sure you mean that it would be the fault of those who didn't manage to get their objections taken seriously, rather than the fault of those who actually voted for it?

No, I meant what I said - please don't put words into my mouth. If it got through without anyone noticing, they would not be in a position to complain that they didn't know about it.

Skooba · 14/03/2017 22:57

Imv trasactivism, pc thinking and virtual signalling has shut down normal media coverage and also debate e.g. At the BBC . so most people don't know what's happening - chest feeding as a term now preferred in some circumstances instead of beast feeding by the BMA (so as in my understanding not to offend transgendered people who don't have breasts) is a pretty crazy thing but no one I have mentioned it to knows if it, that sort of thing would normally be mocked in the tabloids. But nothing appears- hence Jenni Murraybeing alone voice. All this stuff would normally be advertised. Gay marriage was in the news for years before laws were passed, everyone new about it - and had time to adjust to the ideas.

jellyfrizz · 14/03/2017 23:29

If it got through without anyone noticing, they would not be in a position to complain that they didn't know about it.

What? That makes no sense; how can people know about something if they did not notice it?

No one I have spoken to IRL has heard of this bill. I have not seen it discussed in mainstream media at all.

I would not have known about it were it not for Mumsnet.

RakingUpBadMemories · 14/03/2017 23:36

Ok, maybe I've misunderstood what you meant, Mega - so what did you mean?

Megatherium · 15/03/2017 00:50

Jellyfrizz, someone was suggesting upthread that the Irish law had gone through without anyone noticing and was therefore worrying that the same thing had happened here. Clearly someone in Ireland has noticed it now. There have been reports other than on here and the Parliamentary website, so the fact that you haven't spoken to anyone who knows about it doesn't mean that no-one at all outside Parliament knows about it.

Raking, like I say, I meant what I said. If this bill really became law without anyone noticing, there would have to have been some sort of mass hallucination with no-one seeing the Parliament website, no-one reading the other reports, no-one reading this thread, no-one being present in Parliament throughout its various readings and the committee stage; indeed, it would somehow have to happen without any MP actually voting it through.

Essentially what I'm saying is that the suggestion that this could slip through under the radar is not one anyone has to waste time worrying about. You can worry about it being passed, but not that it could happen without you knowing about it.

jellyfrizz · 15/03/2017 06:54

Clearly someone in Ireland knew about it without some sort of mass hallucination as it got passed.

Yet it did slip under the radar without most of the population being aware of it.

When we talk about it slipping under the radar we do not mean literally no one knows about it, we mean that most people are not aware that it is even on the table.

You can worry about it being passed, but not that it could happen without you knowing about it.

You've changed your tune. A little way back you were saying there was no chance of it going through.

MaryTheCanary · 15/03/2017 06:56

How come Ireland is so right-on and PC that they passed a gender identification law like this, yet they still don't even have legal abortion rights?

It's all so weird and arse-backwards.

PoochSmooch · 15/03/2017 07:05

Urgh, that is horrible about Danielle Muscato - literally the atheist in the foxhole who suddenly finds religion. I heard Dave broadcasting on an atheist podcast yonks ago, and he was full of the need to dismantle the structures of religion in order for people to be free. Disgusting hypocrisy. But hey, whatever works for you, Danielle. The point is that you get to do what you like, because oppreshun!

People seriously argue that this person is now and always was a woman, and even to debate that is unthinkable bigotry. It's amazing what people will say to maintain their ideology. Danielle will be "no-true-scotsman"ed away, we'll be told that the actions of one person are irrelevant to the debate, despite that one person's actions going right to the heart of it.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 15/03/2017 08:30

How come Ireland is so right-on and PC that they passed a gender identification law like this, yet they still don't even have legal abortion rights?

It's a perfect illustration of misogyny in action. #biologymatters Progressive legislation to improve the lot of born males = of course! Progressive legislation to improve the lives of born females = how dare you! (PS No-one needs to point out that transmen also benefit. Ido wonder how far this movement would have progressed if ONLY transmen were campaigning.)

merrymouse · 15/03/2017 08:39

Whilst I support the sentiment here, we all know there's going to be some joker that turns up to work in full 'Walking Dead'

I must be wrong because if I'm right the current discussions about mandatory wearing of heels wouldn't make sense.

However, I would have thought that existing anti discrimination legislation would make dress codes that discriminate on the grounds of sex illegal.

merrymouse · 15/03/2017 08:45

We should be aiming for high heels for all, either or none, not high heels for all women and anybody 'identifying' as a woman.

joystir59 · 15/03/2017 08:48

How come Ireland is so right-on and PC that they passed a gender identification law like this, yet they still don't even have legal abortion rights?
Ireland is extremely homophobic- its probably ore acceptable for a man to transition gender than to come out as gay. Ditto other very religious places such as Iran

Megatherium · 15/03/2017 08:52

You can worry about it being passed, but not that it could happen without you knowing about it

You've changed your tune. A little way back you were saying there was no chance of it going through.

FFS, jellyfrizz, do try reading posts before slinging accusations around, and do try applying some basic logic. What I said was:

"How many private members' bills get major publicity? It will have to be published and debated in exactly the same way as every other Parliamentary Bill. As stated repeatedly upthread, the reality is that it stands very little chance of making it into law."

and

"it's a Private Members Bill. Very few of those make it into law."

So no changes of tune.

It is perfectly consistent to say that there is very little chance of the Bill going through but that in the highly unlikely event that it did, it wouldn't pass under the radar.

In relation to Ireland, I suspect that in fact it was perfectly easy to discover the fact that the law was going through, since a quick Google shows a fairly similar legislative process. If people didn't find out, it wasn't because it was being kept a secret.

Datun · 15/03/2017 08:54

You can worry about it being passed, but not that it could happen without you knowing about it.

WE might know about it. A few women on a parents' forum, but unless this possibility is brought to the attention of a lot more people there is no leverage.

Most people have zero idea this is going on. Most people don't understand the implications. It's simply not on their radar. Or they see if as a general LGBT issue which requires knee jerk support.

Because every time somebody tries to get some oxygen through this debate, they are shut down and no platformed. Even this week two feminists have been met with abuse and warnings.

Jenni Murray - a feminist national treasure, has been given an official warning for daring to question.

It IS going under the radar because people are not allowed to talk.