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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

999 replies

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:42

I'm a nervous wreck right now Sad

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared Sad.

OP posts:
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6
augustbody · 09/03/2017 11:37

In fact trans people are assaulted more frequently than the non trans community.

Well apart from the fact that I would like to see stats to back this up, ask yourself who trans people are largely assaulted by. So why is it women that are having to pick up all the slack on this, and welcome penises into their toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards and rape crisis centres with open arms and a warm smile?

Datun · 09/03/2017 11:39

Given there are 22 million women and not many transwomen, you wouldn't expect transwomen to be killed - given the numbers.

Well precisely. It is a non problem here and should not be part of the discussion.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 11:40

But it's women who have to budge over rather than men change their behaviour

Maybe the courts and judiciary should take assault a lot more seriously. Change behaviour and throw the book at people who assault others. Make people afraid to assault others. Accept no excuses.

Make everyone safe from violent men.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 11:41

Well precisely. It is a non problem here and should not be part of the discussion

It's a problem for transwomen and transmen who do fear assault though by violent men?

augustbody · 09/03/2017 11:42

My point is that we should move beyond providing spaces on the basis of physical characteristics.

You don't get it do you? Women's oppression is based on physical characteristics. When a man rapes woman he does it because he has a penis - a physical characteristic- that he can use as a weapon. Along with his strength and his status as a man (again based on his physical characteristics) which mean that he is highly likely to get away with rape. It's all based on physical characteristics.

So excuse me if I don't want to join the 'ooooh biology doesn't matter, we are more than genitals, let's just have all the feels' fucking club.

Datun · 09/03/2017 11:43

Maybe the courts and judiciary should take assault a lot more seriously. Change behaviour and throw the book at people who assault others. Make people afraid to assault others. Accept no excuses.

Good Lord! On earth do you think feminists have been doing all this time? Constant campaigning and lobbying to have rape myths recognised by the judiciary. Constant campaigning and lobbying to have a woman's sexual past not raised in court.

Constant campaigning to improve the woefully, breathtakingly low conviction rate of 5%.

laureywilliams · 09/03/2017 11:45

'Trans people are assaulted more frequently '

I keep seeing this claim. Is there evidence for it ? Or is it made up?

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 11:46

I think its a good thing that we move beyond categorising people and treating them according to a single physical, psychological, social, cultural, racial or religious characteristic

So why is ok to move towards categorising them by gender norms....which are not defined.....???

Datun · 09/03/2017 11:48

It's a problem for transwomen and transmen who do fear assault though by violent men?

I don't want to minimise your fear ami but women are constantly up against this, and have been for centuries. We have tried our level best to make a difference, and is actually getting worse.

The last thing we want to do is make it easier for predators. I know you agree with this, I think what you miss is the overwhelming feeling that women have, that this is an issue that is being taken out of our hands by the thrust of transgenderism, spearheaded by men.

If our efforts to reduce male violence helps you, then all to the good. But it's not about you it's about women.

JapabSharted · 09/03/2017 11:49

In all likelihood I predict that transwomen who choose to encroach on women's spaces are likely to find themselves at increased risk of violence, not decreased.

A violent man may be much more enraged by the presence of a MTT in a changing room with his wife or daughter than he would be to share the same room himself.

None of this excuses violence.

But I sincerely doubt that MTTs using women's spaces will see a decrease in risk, which is the basis of their claim to women's spaces.

PageStillNotFound404 · 09/03/2017 11:49

Good Lord! On earth do you think feminists have been doing all this time? Constant campaigning and lobbying to have rape myths recognised by the judiciary. Constant campaigning and lobbying to have a woman's sexual past not raised in court.

And please note that as Datun rightly points out, it's mostly women who have campaigned for these gradual changes; ditto women's refuges and support for victims of DV/EA. Because rape and male-on-female violence is still seen as a problem for women, rather than as it should be - a problem of men, which decent non-violent men should be tackling with at least equal effort and energy.

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 11:53

When a man rapes woman he does it because he has a penis - a physical characteristic- that he can use as a weapon.

He also does it because the woman he is raping has a vagina (physical characteristic) and has picked her out because he has identified her as a woman (therefore someone who has a vagina he can violate) due to her physical characteristics.

Agree that it's about time we do start making men take more responsibility about the violence and actions of members of their sex, rather than shrugging it off and thinking as long as they don't do it themselves, then it's not their problem.

It's going to be harder I think to raise sons that appreciate women for their own abilities due to the pink/blue shit that is everywhere and far worse than a few decades back. We need men to stand up and say 'don't sell pink Lego to my daughter, she's a girl ffs, she can handle all sorts of amazing shit, she can handle a spaceship made of plastic!'.

Datun · 09/03/2017 11:55

Interestingly, there was a thread Reddit from a boy at school who was complaining that it was the male toilets at his school that had been designated gender neutral and the girls toilets had remained girl only.

In the comments, apart from one or two men idly wondering how they might feel, most of the complaints were how inconvenient it was going to be now, as the line for the gents would be twice as long.

As Erin Pizzey said with regard to first dates, men's biggest fear are that they will be laughed at, women's biggest fear are that they will be killed.

conkercola · 09/03/2017 11:57

Given there are 22 million women and not many transwomen, you wouldn't expect transwomen to be killed - given the numbers

Yet there has been at least one trans woman who has murdered in the case of Bethany Hill

BevGoldbergsSister · 09/03/2017 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 09/03/2017 12:00

A man dressed as a woman is more likely to be assaulted in a men's toilet than in a woman's because they are obviously challenging social norms. In a women's toilet it is less obvious as femininity exists on a continuum. So the breach is less obvious

No. The 'breach' of social norms is not less obvious. It's just that people with female biology are statistically hugely less violent and socialised that assaulting someone who threatens your space is ok. Yes, mens toilets are not safe places for transpeople, and no one should have to face fear, assault and risk. However where, in all the equality billing, is the concerted action to teach boys and men that this kind of behaviour and their very narrow and easily threatened view of social norm for men is no longer acceptable?

Instead, the answer is 'women, move over, blow your social norms apart and shut up about it, because you obviously can't expect men to put themselves out or do things differently'. That says a great deal about the difference in the way it's acceptable to treat women compared to the way men are treated. It's also tacit acknowledgement that men, in any way inconvenienced, refuse to put up with it and get listened to.

If you agree that transwomen are not safe in men's bathrooms because of the male violence, (and I do), then you cannot argue that gender self identification that allows any man to access a woman's bathroom is safe. Why are men potentially dangerous in a men's bathroom but all unquestionably happy little cherubs who wouldn't hurt a fly if they walk into a women's bathroom? Why are transwomen justified in their fear of exposure to violent men but natal women aren't? There is no logic here. As for the line sometimes trotted out about 'so what, if you are assaulted or raped then it's a crime and you have recourse to the police' - that's again only trotted out to women.

And no, femininity isn't some magic continuum while masculinity isn't. It's just that in our supposedly modern, liberal, vibrant, other crappy buzzword society it is still currently acceptable to maintain a rigid view of what a man is. Women should not lose their identity to absorb everyone else. It should be fine for boys to wear pink, high heels, dresses, present themselves and do whatever they want to do, without being told outright or by implication that they are on the 'feminine continuum'. That is NOT the same as someone with gender dysphoria. Many of those individuals whose masculinity is not of the stereotypical type are actually gay. Not women. To push them towards 'not male enough, therefore you're a girl' is homophobic. Not to mention horrifically regressive.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 12:01

But I sincerely doubt that MTTs using women's spaces will see a decrease in risk, which is the basis of their claim to women's spaces.

Considering that the self-identification enables all violent males to just walk into the women's spaces, even those trans who previously could keep their heads down and behave and be tolerated in women's spaces, won't have any advantage from that anymore.

Basically, the transwacktivist make the world unsafer for everyone.

The only advantage anyone has here is males, who will have more opportunities for raping females.

grace9892 · 09/03/2017 12:02

Here's the text from govt

services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/genderidentityprotectedcharacteristic.html

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 12:02

Why are men potentially dangerous in a men's bathroom but all unquestionably happy little cherubs who wouldn't hurt a fly if they walk into a women's bathroom?

This, exactly. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

PageStillNotFound404 · 09/03/2017 12:03

Brilliant post rumbling.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 12:03

Women did it. Disabled people did it. Can we not do it again

What would such a space look like? Would you need a space for transwomen? Transmen? What about transwomen who have had surgery and are worried about men who decide to go into a space because they know that transwomen are in there and decide to attack them because they are even more vulnerable in a lone space? Or a transwomen who has had surgery and does not want to expose herself in front of someone who has a penis?

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 09/03/2017 12:04

Women did it. Disabled people did it. Can we not do it again?

Here here. I'll march for that. I'll campaign for that. Show me where to sign up.

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 12:06

Taking a breather from the more serious part of the debate...

Can we stop talking about men in dresses claiming to be 'women' in the loos? Last time I was at the playground, in the supermarket or women's loos I would struggle to find a majority of women wearing dresses. An average woman in the UK is far more likely to be wearing jeans, trainers and a t-shirt. And, I say that as a woman who regularly wears skirts.....

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 09/03/2017 12:08

Would you need a space for transwomen? Transmen? What about transwomen who have had surgery and are worried about men who decide to go into a space because they know that transwomen are in there and decide to attack them because they are even more vulnerable in a lone space? Or a transwomen who has had surgery and does not want to expose herself in front of someone who has a penis?

This is exactly where the lack of seriously addressing male violence on a national scale is sticking out like a massive sore thumb. That is the core issue, and its a fucking enormous elephant in the room.

I would think the best solution is the one often discussed which is the provision in all places of toilets designed like disabled loos which are wholly enclosed rooms with toilet and sink, which can be unisex, unigender and safe for everyone.

PageStillNotFound404 · 09/03/2017 12:10

What would such a space look like? Would you need a space for transwomen? Transmen? What about transwomen who have had surgery and are worried about men who decide to go into a space because they know that transwomen are in there and decide to attack them because they are even more vulnerable in a lone space? Or a transwomen who has had surgery and does not want to expose herself in front of someone who has a penis?

I don't know. I'm not trans. You figure out collectively what you need based on the specific concerns of the trans community and assuming it's rational and understandable and doesn't involve other sections of society having to give up their hard-won rights to accommodate yours, I'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you while you campaign for it.