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Original poster

To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

999 replies

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:42

I'm a nervous wreck right now Sad

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared Sad.

OP posts:
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6
Iris65 · 09/03/2017 10:55

My point is that we should move beyond providing spaces on the basis of physical characteristics.
And yes, gender is a cultural construct - which feeds into individual identity. It is constructed. Not absolute - which many on this thread seem to believe!

merrymouse · 09/03/2017 10:56

Back In the eighties it seemed as though it would possible at some point in the near future that men and women wouldn't be judged on whether they looked too butch or wore make up. Now the dialogue is about putting people firmly back in their boxes.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 09/03/2017 10:58

Transwomen are at higher risk of being attacked in general

Yes - and if this law comes in then a genuine Transwomen will no longer be safe in a women's bathroom.

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 10:58

Trans women are at higher risk of being attacked in general.

ODFO.

They're 'scared' of using a mans toilet, a toilet that is correct for their sex. So we have to let them into ours?

No. no no no no no. They are still male. Wearing a dress doesn't change that.

WHAT ARE YOU NOT GETTING?!

BevGoldbergsSister · 09/03/2017 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 10:59

Good point Mumof!

Iris65 · 09/03/2017 11:00

Oh good god. So a woman born without a uterus isn't female? A person with the physical appearance of a woman but with XXY chromosomes isn't woman?

How very .........old fashioned.

merrymouse · 09/03/2017 11:00

Nobody on this thread believes gender is absolute.

They do believe sex is a physical fact.

Whether men commit more violent crimes than women because of hormones, up bringing or because they can, hasn't been definitively explained. However, the fact is that they do and it has little to do with gender identity.

merrymouse · 09/03/2017 11:02

Oh good god. So a woman born without a uterus isn't female? A person with the physical appearance of a woman but with XXY chromosomes isn't woman?

A woman without a uterus is a woman without a uterus. Somebody with XXY chromosomes is somebody with XXY chromosomes.

Those are medical facts that have absolutely nothing to do with gender identity.

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 11:02

Iris again with being so obtuse. Where did you get that from?

Xx= female

XY= male

Xxy, xxxy etc are all still counted as male humans

I'm really not understanding why it's so difficult to grasp?

No one said no womb= not female did they?!

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 11:03

And yes, typical TRA speak to resort to the xxy/intersex argument when the fact is that gender is a social construct and Transgender is a social issue not a medical one. Absolutely ridiculous.

BevGoldbergsSister · 09/03/2017 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Scissorcisters · 09/03/2017 11:06

Where is your proof they are more at risk? Or do you mean black trans sex workers? All sex workers are at higher risk by the way. Why is trans safety more important than natal women safety? Why do they need access to our toilets?

Define a women please?

Are lesbians who reject penis Transphopic?

Iris you are clearly intelligent, even so your arguments are not convincing.

As I said what is a woman?

JapabSharted · 09/03/2017 11:06

gender identity is highly personal

Yes. So personal that it makes no sense to call it GENDER (a category which is a collective group) IDENTITY. It is INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY.

So why should a person's INDIVIDUAL identity cause them to erroneously believe they should be included in a GROUP? If you don't possess the characteristics of that group then you are not part of this.

I have XX chromosomes and ovaries. (for example) Anyone who also has XX chromosomes and ovaries objectively shares something in common with me. We are a group. There's a name for us.

A person who objectively doesn't meet that description has no earthly reason to use the word that is shorthand for people with XX chromosomes and ovaries.

If there is some other characteristic they possess, that matters greatly to them, let them state what that characteristic is in plain terms and other people will either also possess that characteristic and be part of that collective group, or it will be an individual characteristic unique to the individual.

If any woman genuinely believes herself to have some characteristic important in common with transwomen that distinguishes them both from men, then wonderful. Name it, form your group, fight for your rights.

Don't just take a word with meaning, empty it of its meaning and wear it like a bag you stole, emptied of its owner's contents and claimed as your own.

I don't know what, exactly, certain people believe that some women and some transwomen have in common that makes them profoundly different from men and in need of shared space but I'm happy to support the creation of third spaces for those people.

I personally have objective, factual common traits with all biological women, and I want to retain the spaces where I can be separated from men.

jojo2916 · 09/03/2017 11:08

It worries me also but in the past decade I have noticed many in society frown at separations between the sexes, women offended at having a door opened for them, men feeling they would rather be at home with the baby than at work, traditional roles have been changing for a long time and I don't think this is a separate issue its the outcome of change in societal discourse and social norms. It may be we are right to change traditional roles, frown upon baby girls being dressed in pink etc etc I think it's fair to say in recent years the role of both sexes has morphed to become very similar. IMO this is the outcome of years of society getting annoyed when differences are highlighted between the sexes whether this was the intended outcome or not. Less differentiation between treatment, expectations roles of each sex over the years has lead to a society which feels differences should be denied rather than celebrated. Maybe this has been the right thing maybe not but I believe this is a consequence of this outlook. Our biology is different but if we as a society want to disregard this to all be the same I'm not surprised it's come to this and I think it is a natural and expected progression of a society which tries very hard to not let one's biological sex mean they are treated differently. An extreme outcome if it goes ahead but not one that surprises me that much.

BevGoldbergsSister · 09/03/2017 11:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PageStillNotFound404 · 09/03/2017 11:27

As has to be said on every trans thread - please don't conflate intersex people with transgender. The majority of intersex individuals do not identify as transgender and some have asked TRAs to stop using them as examples to bolster their arguments as they do not consider their biological makeup to be relevant in a debate on a societal construct. (They're ignored of course, but that's TRAs for you.)

BevGoldbergsSister · 09/03/2017 11:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AgentBlue · 09/03/2017 11:29

In fact trans people are assaulted more frequently than the non trans community.

Really where are the stats to show this?

We know that 2 women are killed every week in this country, with countless more physically and sexually assaulted. We have the statistics to show this. Where are the ones to back up what you say?

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 11:32

Yes women are assaulted in many places. But they are more vulnerable in done than others, high school toilets where a teacher wouldn't dare enter for fear of accusations will be an easy place for teen boys to follow. And hospitals refuges etc- places where females are especially vulnerable

augustbody · 09/03/2017 11:32

Should seeing a penis be that awful, it's just the human body?

Honestly, anyone who cannot even understand why some women would not want to be in the presence of a penis in a changing room has absolutely no idea of any of the issues around this. Cis privilege my arse.

There was a guy a few days ago on Twitter blaming 'intolerance' on a 12 year old not wanting to see a cock in the changing rooms.

Fucking. Grim.

Datun · 09/03/2017 11:33

As I said in my previous post you should be dealing with the risk of sexual assault generally not fussing about one location.

So because you are going to get raped anyway, you may as well open the doors to everybody. That's what that says.

The latest figures state that nearly 3 women are killed a week in this country. In the last year no transwoman has been killed in this country, in fact no transwoman has ever been killed in this country. In the last year a transman was killed, ie another woman.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 11:34

In fact trans people are assaulted more frequently than the non trans community

Trans women can face attack for 2 reasons - being seen as trans and attacked for being trans by violent men.

Or being seen as women and being attacked for being seen as women by violent men.

Trans men can be attacked for being seen as trans by violent men.

Trans men can be attacked because they are seen as men by violent men.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 11:36

The latest figures state that nearly 3 women are killed a week in this country

In the last year no transwoman has been killed in this country, in fact no transwoman has ever been killed in this country

Given there are 22 million women and not many transwomen, you wouldn't expect transwomen to be killed - given the numbers.

PageStillNotFound404 · 09/03/2017 11:36

So the common theme there ami is the violent men. But it's women who have to budge over rather than men change their behaviour.

As it ever was.