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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why so many people don't realise the risks.

176 replies

Babbaganush · 08/03/2017 16:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-39208946
Dubai
An engaged couple are under arrest for having sex outside marriage, they were reported after she presented at hospital with cramping and was found to be pregnant.
I can't understand the attraction of the place but I spent a lot of time there in the mid 80s when my father worked there - that probably put me off for life!

OP posts:
OhtoblazeswithElvira · 10/03/2017 09:28

In my mind:

Expressing culture and identity = using certain names, eating certain foods, speaking X language, festivals, music etc.

Here we are talking about people being put in jail for sharing a room with another consenting adult because they don't have X piece of paper.

Then there's religion.

And then there are basic human rights - this idea that people (men and women) are equal. For most MNrs man rights trump local law and customs, and this is the gist of the thread. But we can't talk about human rights because they are almost a dirty word in Britain.

I think the distinction is very clear in most people's minds, possibly yours, too.

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 10/03/2017 09:29

human rights not man rights
Interesting autocorrect!

Rollonmonday · 10/03/2017 11:58

This reminds me of when my sister and her hubby had a 3 night stopover in Dubai en-route to Malaysia for their honeymoon. After customs they had to have their bag scanned before exiting the airport, and my brother in law had packed a vibrator which was confiscated!
My sister was mortified, she honestly had no idea it was in the suitcase!
Let this be a warning to leave sex toys at home if travelling to Dubai!!

mumto2two · 10/03/2017 13:12

Puts the all-embracing liberal attitudes of our own country into stark perspective. We go to countries like this and have no choice but to abide by their often draconian laws, which is fair enough.. When in Rome etc.
But what happens when they come to ours? We have no choice but to accommodate whatever custom they require..
No wonder national identity has become such a contentious issue..
Sorry..I know it's somewhat off point, but every time I hear of something like this, I am reminded. And it never sits well...Hmm

ClaryIsTheBest · 10/03/2017 13:16

Theres's one thing I don't get... I'm a migrant/expat (whatever. Came here for work, wanted to stay a year. Met DH and we decided to stay at least for a few years, for his career and research)

Anyway. The UK is a great country. I don't see why some people aren't proud of it or are afraid to expect that migrants (which includes me) follow the law and be productive members of society.

If somebody wants the UK to be like a rural village in Pakistan (or Chile or Italy)? Then they should stay in that village.

damnedgrubble · 10/03/2017 13:22

If I was your sister then I wouldn't go, I wouldn't put it past them to insist on proof other than a wedding ring; it's too easy to let something slip anyway if you are under pressure when in a hospital in a foreign country when you are pregnant and worried as you would be if you ended up in hospital with complications.

It's an awful country IMO with archaic and inhuman laws but people living there need to make themselves aware of the law - ignorance of the law is no defence in any country.

Thegruffalowswife · 10/03/2017 13:24

Yes.. If I visited a country with specific laws and rules I would abide by them, however difficult it was for me.

I am disappointed that in Britain we do not expect the same of people from other countries who come here.

If I hated a country's laws so much that I couldn't follow them. I would not go... simple really Grin

I usually cover up on the beach because I am not proud of my big white flabby body.

If I go to France I will wear less modest swimwear in areas where that is required.

If I went to Saudi....I would not expect to drink alcohol or read the Bible.

I just don't really understand the concept of going to a country and then thinking the law doesn't apply.

ClaryIsTheBest · 10/03/2017 13:28

Thegruffalowswife

Exactly. I hate driving in the UK (Seriously, DH and I argue about it soo often. But I also believe that his driving style is especially reprehensible).

But I'm not going to the UK and trying to change the side of thr road you guys drive on (and some other things, right?)

I know, it's a silly example, but seriously... It makes me so angry when some people think they can't expect immigrants to follow the law.

Also because it's racist in a weird way. "oh, they're immigrants. Can't expect too much of them, right?"

glitterazi · 10/03/2017 13:28

Yet elsewhere here on MN there is an idea that people who immigrate to this country should be allowed to express their culture and identity. That would be a culture that treats women as second class objects.

Well, quite. Which is why you should respect the laws and the culture of the land you are living in. As sometimes there is just such a huge clash and contradictory to each other.
Westerners going over to live in Dubai - live by their rules, however much they repulse us.
Living in the UK - abide by our rules and our customs. It's become almost a dirty word and viewpoint to say this now, and I think that's where it starts to become a problem.
What's so wrong with a bit of respect for the place where you are living/visiting? I might not agree with their laws but I'd sure respect them if I went. Which is why I don't want to go to Dubai as I hate the way I'd be treated as a female if I did. There's so many more tolerant countries to visit that do tally with what I believe.

glitterazi · 10/03/2017 13:29

If I hated a country's laws so much that I couldn't follow them. I would not go... simple really

Exactly, it's not rocket science really, is it?! Grin

ClaryIsTheBest · 10/03/2017 13:35

Living in the UK - abide by our rules and our customs. It's become almost a dirty word and viewpoint to say this now, and I think that's where it starts to become a problem.

Is it really a dirty word? I know many people with these kind of ideas. Then again, I guess it depend on the political leanings of the people you happen to associate with.
But DH is, for example, a historian and pretty liberal. and he'd also agree with that...

ClaryIsTheBest · 10/03/2017 13:38

Btw, I should maybe add:

Living by your rules? Yes, 100%

Customs? Eh. Nobody should be expected to celebrate Christmas just because that is a custom in the UK. Or eat these cross buns for Easter...

Ineke · 10/03/2017 15:18

Horrible place, horrible laws, horrible extreme wealth. Dark Ages.

ToastDemon · 10/03/2017 15:34

The couple have now had charges against them dropped and will return to South Africa.

Thegruffalowswife · 10/03/2017 15:34

Customs? Eh. Nobody should be expected to celebrate Christmas just because that is a custom in the UK. Or eat these cross buns for Easter...

No but they should be expected not to look down upon, criticise and be mortally offended when other people have the audacity to celebrate or do these things in front of them.

I would happily eat a bacon sandwich in front of my muslim friend in the uk. I don't have a problem that she wears a headscarf.

Thegruffalowswife · 10/03/2017 15:43

If it was the law that she couldn't wear one (god forbid and I hope our laws are never that wierd) I would expect her to abide by it as I would wear socially acceptible clothing in muslim countries.

mummytime · 10/03/2017 18:22

Thegruffalowswife - I have never come across someone from another country who is offended by UK people celebrating Christmas etc. I have come across those who don't want to "join in" and that can create problems for supervision at schools.
But the people who want us to celebrate "Winterval" instead of "Christmas" tend to be rare and usually "White liberals"

Thegruffalowswife · 10/03/2017 22:33

I know what you mean mummy. My friend non white and from Pakistan complained to me that "I was looking forward to a wee nativity" once when the school did a winter show and she is a very religious and very well educated Muslim lady.

Someone needs to tell the white illiberals to do one!

Thegruffalowswife · 10/03/2017 22:40

I have met the mortaly offended ones too though when I lived in an area in the south east.
The thing is once people are allowed to think that they are beyond criticism, because popular opinion tells them so then they feel comfortable imposing their culture and expectations on others.
That is not the fault of the guest or the immigrant. More a problem caused by the group you mentioned above, who facilitate it.

HelenaDove · 11/03/2017 00:41

"That would be a culture that treats women as second class objects"

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. After what you posted elsewhere earlier this week about women only being fuckable when they are a certain weight and how your wife was blubbery at Xmas but now shes not.
And your comments about women sleeping with rich men for money.

Either you are deliberately on the wind up or you really believe your misogyny is a better class of misogyny for some reason unknown.

On the subject of the thread ....its absolutely horrifying that this goes on. My ex boss from 16 years ago went to Dubai back in 2001 with her partner and were there for a fortnight Maybe they stayed within the confines of a resort or were just "lucky"

Dumdedumdedum · 11/03/2017 02:57

The couple the original article is about were living in Abu Dhabi, which is another Emirate, stricter than Dubai in some things. Thanks to lobbying by the man's parents, the couple's employer took the matter up and they have both been released from prison, presumably soon to be on a plane out of there. (Though not according to the Fail, which says they intend to get married and continue living and working in the UAE.)
www.heraldlive.co.za/news/2017/03/10/locked-love-couple-released-uae-charges-dropped/

Ericaequites · 11/03/2017 03:54

I would rather be an English dog than a woman in the Gulf states.

VestalVirgin · 14/03/2017 11:53

Either you are deliberately on the wind up or you really believe your misogyny is a better class of misogyny for some reason unknown.

Oh, that's really common. I knew a vile misogynist who totally agreed with me that what was going on in some Muslim countries was inacceptable.

That fooled me for some time - then I discovered that he therefore thought that all misogyny that was not exactly AS bad as what's happening in Afghanistan, or Dubai, or whathaveyou, was totes okay.

Those men really love it that there's countries where there's even more misogyny than here, so they can look better while still being misogynist assholes.

Thehappygardener · 14/03/2017 22:58

The couple have now had charges against them dropped and will return to South Africa:

Fantastic news for them, and VERY well done his mother for pushing this sensible course of action through :-)

Thegruffalowswife · 14/03/2017 23:32

Thank god... what a horrible story that was!!! Some places are just incredibly scary!