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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why so many people don't realise the risks.

176 replies

Babbaganush · 08/03/2017 16:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-39208946
Dubai
An engaged couple are under arrest for having sex outside marriage, they were reported after she presented at hospital with cramping and was found to be pregnant.
I can't understand the attraction of the place but I spent a lot of time there in the mid 80s when my father worked there - that probably put me off for life!

OP posts:
OhGodWhatTheHellNow · 09/03/2017 14:21

Oh brasty my uncle did that in the sixties, came back from army service with his child bride...and her mother! Nobody reported him, but then he wasn't reported for kicking seven bells out of her and their kids on a regular basis either.

The shame Blush

Of course, that would have been ok in UAE as they were married.

Knifegrinder · 09/03/2017 14:29

It's deeply, deeply unlikely to happen in the kinds of hotels most Westerners will be staying in - it's not in the interests of the Dubai authorities to hit the lucrative tourist trade. Much more likely to happen in the seedy budget places used by prostitutes as part of a fairly halfhearted brothel crackdown, but in fact fairly unlikely to happen in hotels at all, or in Dubai at all (unless you are an unmarried couple reported to the police because you are noisy neighbours or because one or both of you is reported by a spouse not impressed with adultery - there were occasional newspaper stories of wives walking in on husbands and their girlfriends and calling the police on them).

The vast majority of the opposite sex sharing space fines when I was there took place in the poorer areas of Sharjah and involved Indian/Pakistani and African people working in low-level retail/service jobs.

The problem again is the 'grey area. Sharia law prohibits unmarried unrelated men and women from sharing closed spaces (which technically includes taxis, lifts, offices etc) but this isn't applied in Dubai as it is in Saudi, or used to be. There were a few 'Arabic' hotels which had male-only and female-only floors, though.

But if you're pregnant, unmarried and give birth early or need emergency medical care while in Dubai, then, yes, you are playing Russian roulette with whether the clinic/hospital asks for a marriage cert or notifies the authorities.

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 15:58

I have warned her, she wasn't aware of the laws applying to tourists

[shocked] The law's the law in a country regardless of whether you live there or are a tourist!
If you think that train of thought through, does that mean anyone on holiday in the UK can do as they like flouting laws as in their country it's OK?!
Of course that wouldn't be OK. So why would it be OK to disregard laws in the UAE?
The shocked face as I honestly am that people are prepared to go to a completely culturally different country with an utter lack of knowledge for the laws and a big sense of naivety.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 16:19

Of course that wouldn't be OK. So why would it be OK to disregard laws in the UAE?

Because some of their laws are misogynist bullshit.

It is completely okay, morally, to disregard misogynist laws.

It is just not very clever if you don't do it as part of an organised protest, but because think the laws don't apply to you because you're a tourist.

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 16:33

Because some of their laws are misogynist bullshit.

I agree, I don't agree with their laws at all. They're disgusting, and that's why I'd never go.
I hope I'm missing some sarcasm in your post though as it's not always easy to convey tone in the written form.
Hope you don't really think it's OK to disregard laws of countries if you don't agree with them!

Smurfpoo · 09/03/2017 16:34

The problem is it's often touted as a romantic destination by travel agents perfect for your baby moon.
You'd expect the travel agents to steer unmarried couples away.
The other issue is what's allowed in the hotel e.g drinking isn't allowed elsewhere.

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 16:45

The other issue is what's allowed in the hotel e.g drinking isn't allowed elsewhere.

That's another thing that gets me about the place. It's illegal away from the big spenders in the hotels, but if you can splash the cash in the hotels bars then suddenly they might relax the law? Hmm
No. I don't think so. If it's illegal, then it's illegal. Shouldn't be playing Russian Roulette by partaking in illegal activities from behind a shiny hotel facade.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 16:46

Hope you don't really think it's OK to disregard laws of countries if you don't agree with them!

I am German.

The person the school I went to was named after was executed by the nazis for disobeying their laws.

Of fucking course I think it is okay do disregard laws of countries if they are wrong.

I have no intention to go to Dubai to disobey their laws, I mean, it is not like Rosa Parks went holidaying in the US to sit in the part of the bus reserved for white people.

But if for some reason I had to work in Dubai, you can BET on it I would hide an unmarried pregnant woman in my flat while the police searches for her, and I would feel great about it.
(And if I were too cowardly to do it, then I would feel ashamed of myself.)

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 16:56

Of fucking course I think it is okay do disregard laws of countries if they are wrong.

Where do you stop with that attitude, though? Genuine question. So if someone comes over to England and thinks it's OK to touch up or harass girls as they're dressed in next to nothing and their culture thinks they must be up for it?

Floggingmolly · 09/03/2017 17:03

You can't "disregard" laws you don't agree with and assume that your superior judgement means they don't apply to you. That's a really juvenile way to think Hmm
You can vote with your feet and stay the hell away from the place.

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 17:17

You can vote with your feet and stay the hell away from the place.

Yes to that. I think the fact that the laws are sometimes so relaxed just for the tourist's benefit and naive Westerners with superiority complexes says a hell of a lot - seems to be the cash they're after. If you're splashing it freely in the shiny bars and shopping malls, a certain relax and sense of complacency and blind eye turning.
It is actually still breaking the law though and you're (general you) are bloody stupid to even risk it or think it doesn't apply to you.

sashh · 09/03/2017 17:56

Surely Dubai cannot prosecute people for things people did in other countries? That is not possible surely?

The UK can and does prosecute UK nationals for some crimes committed outside the country.

You can be deported to the US for committing a 'crime' when in the UK.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 18:04

Where do you stop with that attitude, though? Genuine question. So if someone comes over to England and thinks it's OK to touch up or harass girls as they're dressed in next to nothing and their culture thinks they must be up for it?

If you seriously are of the opinion that harrassing girls in England is wrong because it is against English law and not, you know, because harrassing girls is wrong on ever place on earth then you need to have your head checked.

Seriously, don't be daft.

MummyToTwoBeautifulGirls · 09/03/2017 18:08

I haven't read all of this as but
As a tourist the rules won't apply I have friends who go every year as a unmarried couple with and without kids no problem
The couple were living in Dubai and the rules apply and the couple would know about it. Yes the Middle East is different but if you want to live there you have to go by their laws however
ridiculous they are.

The lady asking about her dsis she will be fine going on holiday if you are worried just double check with the embassy

AdoraBell · 09/03/2017 18:16

My 15 yr old DD wants to visit because her best mate lives there. With her parents, in an expat compound. Apparently IABU to refuse to let her go and so she'll be booking her flight the day she turns 18. How the fuck do I get her to see sense?

ComputerUserNumptyTwit · 09/03/2017 18:20

Excellent post, Vestal.

I'm generally a rule abiding person, but some people are so wedded to the law it actually scares me a bit.

glitterazi · 09/03/2017 18:22

If you seriously are of the opinion that harrassing girls in England is wrong because it is against English law and not, you know, because harrassing girls is wrong on ever place on earth then you need to have your head checked.

Way to go to completely ignore and have my point fly right over your head.
Of course it's never acceptable to harrass girls! With your logic though, if they don't agree with your laws and they think they're stupid, then they can disregard them.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 18:25

My 15 yr old DD wants to visit because her best mate lives there. With her parents, in an expat compound. Apparently IABU to refuse to let her go and so she'll be booking her flight the day she turns 18. How the fuck do I get her to see sense?

Devote a wall in your house to all newspaper articles about women who got sent to prison for being raped in Dubai. And other, similar cases.

Don't worry, she will do a lot of growing up in three years. I doubt she'll still be so naive when she turns 18. Perhaps her best mate will have woken up to the reality there in three years, too.

As a tourist the rules won't apply I have friends who go every year as a unmarried couple with and without kids no problem

Do read the thread. The laws still do apply. Your friends only have no problems because the woman never was a) raped or b) pregnant and in need of medical help. However, this can still happen!

Andrewofgg · 09/03/2017 18:28

In England and Wales you can get married at sixteen with parental permission and in Scotland without that although few women and even fewer men do. But how would we feel if a British couple, domiciled and resident here, citizens here, went on holiday to a country where the age of consent and of marriage is seventeen or eighteen, and were prosecuted for having sex with each other?

I am honestly not sure. Any views?

Floggingmolly · 09/03/2017 18:29

Mummy, you're taking complete shite, love.

Thehappygardener · 09/03/2017 18:44

A friend nursed there many years ago, and after a lovely holiday with her fiancée in Canada, she went back there to work.

A few weeks later, she discovered she was a 'tiny bit pregnant'.

She got her mum to ring her from the UK begging her to go home for a family crisis, got a week or two of compassionate leave, she left the country, didn't tell ANYONE there, or even pack her belongings. Was very frightened till the plane got back to the UK.

Same goes for Saudi.

Do hope that the young couple are ok, and their respective countries MUST negotiate with the UAE to get them home. 🌺

HelenaGWells · 09/03/2017 18:44

It's a very difficult and frankly ridiculous situation. The law is utter bollocks and shouldn't be in place.

As a tourist they often turn a blind eye if you are within a tourist hotel but it is a huge risk you are taking as it really isn't a tolerant country. A PDA in these places can have you in a cell for the night at the very least.

The difficult part is that they were both living and working in the country, they aren't tourists who have no clue about the law. It says he has been there for 5 years. I'm amazed they haven't had a quickie wedding to ensure both their safety. After 5 years in the country you should be aware of laws like this. You shouldn't have to get married to protect yourself in this way but in a place like this I suspect your choice is get married, abstain from sex so zero risk of pregnancy or leave the country.

It's totally messed up that these laws even exist. I hope they do get out without a jail sentence but I can see why they are struggling to get help. If they were tourists the embassy could plead ignorance but when they have been there so long that's not going to fly.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 18:45

But how would we feel if a British couple, domiciled and resident here, citizens here, went on holiday to a country where the age of consent and of marriage is seventeen or eighteen, and were prosecuted for having sex with each other?

But this doesn't really happen, doesn't it? Because (somewhat) civilised countries have age of consent laws in place to make it easier to prosecute sexual abuse of children. There are tons of exceptions for the partner who is over the age of consent if the age difference is not too high.

And I don't know how you feel, but I would be okay with a 30 year old from Scotland being prosecuted for getting his 16 year old bride pregnant before she reaches the age of consent.

Knifegrinder · 09/03/2017 18:52

Mummy, that simply isn't the case.

The FO guidelines for the UAE - see the 'Relationships outside of marriage' section --

www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/local-laws-and-customs

-- which clearly states that sex outside marriage is illegal for both residents and tourists, irrespective of the relationship you may have with your partner in the U.K., and is punishable. Your friends have simply not come to the attention of the authorities for any reason, like getting into an altercation with an Emirati, public PDA, or needing pregnancy-related medical treatment.

YaminaZ · 09/03/2017 18:53

I think without a marriage certificate I wouldn't risk it. Slightly different but my DH is Algerian and we were refused entry to 2 hotels over there because I 'only' had our British marriage certificate and not the official 'family book'! Doesn't matter if the laws/customs seem crazy- if you could risk problems then just avoid!