Page 6 | To wonder why so many people don't realise the risks.

Babbaganush · 2017-03-08T16:44:25+00:00

[[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-39208946]] Dubai An engaged couple are under arrest for having sex outside marriage, they were reported after she presented at hospital with cramping and was found to be pregnant. I can't understand the attraction of the place but I spent a lot of time there in the mid 80s when my father worked there - that probably put me off for life!

mummytime · 09/03/2017 18:54

And at least one American pop star has "got in trouble" in the U.K. for being with his 13 year old wife.

ClaryIsTheBest · 09/03/2017 19:01

The country has sentenced women for being raped. More prominent cases where tourists were involved... So, I'm honestly not sure how anybody can't know.

SoupDragon · 09/03/2017 19:07

If an adult married a 13 year old, perfectly legal in some countries, came to the UK on holiday and shared a bed as a couple, would you be surprised if the UK police did something about this? Same principle.

By what if they didn't share a bed as a couple? It sounds like UAE would prosecute a pregnant unmarried woman even if she didn't have sex in the country.

Not that this applies to the poster's sister.

ClaryIsTheBest · 09/03/2017 19:11

But... What kind of an argument is that?

Where sex crimes against minors are concerned states often persecute. Even when the crime was in an other country... Not sure abiut the UK, but at least where I studied law there are several territorial principles to deal with these things.

Andrewofgg · 09/03/2017 19:11

VestalVirgin The thirty-year old Scot who gets his 16-year old bride pg is not doing so before she reaches the age of consent because the age of consent and the age at which you can marry are the same: 16. I was considering the case where these two lawfully married people have sex in another country.

Oddly, the question arose in reverse when the Sexual Offences Act was passed. The old law referred to "unlawful sexual intercourse" and if you were married by the law of your domicile it was not unlawful. The new law changed that and the Minister in charge (Lady Scotland) made it clear that that was deliberate; it was a rather xenophobic speech about not wanting these dirty foreigners having sex here. (Shades of ^No sex, please, we're British").

In practice I don't think Plod or the CPS would take any interest if Pierre who is 18 and Jeanne who is 15 , both French, both resident and domiciled in France, married there, consummated the marriage here, and I don't think they should; but I now others will differ.

SoupDragon · 09/03/2017 19:35

What kind of an argument is that?

It wasn't an argument

Eunamechange · 09/03/2017 19:37

There is a real limit to what the FCO can do for you. They cannot spring you from prison, or bribe you out. If you broke the laws of the country then the best you can hope for is deportation, and that's what they will try for. But even that can be subject to local political issues, a government wanting to show strength or give a lesson. Also, you're causing a hell of a headache for the FCO, and it may affect their ability to influence in other areas, because they're begging for favours to get you out of trouble.

Always read FCO guidance on the website before you go (Singapore's another place where you'll want to read the rules very carefully).

Seriously, if people came here and starting applying the more violent parts of Sharia Law or committing FGM, do you think the police and legal system would let them off because they're legal in their home country? The FCO cannot go around fiddling with other countries' laws, just as others countries can't fiddle with our legal system.

ClaryIsTheBest · 09/03/2017 19:37

No... I didn't mean argument. I mean... Shoot. Reason/Point?

I didn't mean you guys were arguing. More like... What kind of a point is that?

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 19:49

Seriously, if people came here and starting applying the more violent parts of Sharia Law or committing FGM, do you think the police and legal system would let them off because they're legal in their home country?

Actually, that is what happens in many countries.
(There was a judge in Germany who told a woman who was a victim of domestic violence to shut up because she was from an Islamistic country, and since it is legal there, the judge reasoned the husband should not be punished. Needless to say, people got very angry at that idiot judge, but it happens.)
FGM is also not punished nearly as harshly as Englishwomen cutting off their children's healthy bodyparts would be punished; there's lots of talk about education instead of punishment, et cetera.

It is not the same though, is it? People coming to civilised countries and harming others is not the same as people going to uncivilised countries and just doing their own thing without harming anyone.

The best comparison would be if a guy from the Netherlands was caught smoking weed in England. That'd be the equivalent of having unmarried sex in Dubai.

Jooni · 09/03/2017 20:09

Jesus. I had no idea, I'll definitely be more careful about foreign laws from now on.

What about this situation? My friend (unmarried) lived and worked in Dubai for several years before moving to the UK and having a child. She's since split from the child's father and is planning on moving back to Dubai in a few months. Is she at risk too?

passingthrough1 · 09/03/2017 20:09

I do get all the TOWIE and Z list celebs that go there unmarried, sometimes taking kids or getting engaged out there. Seems blatantly breaking the law is ok for them?
As I'm not married to my partner we've said we won't go to anywhere in the Middle East, even if it's 99.99% sure to be ok.

charlestrenet · 09/03/2017 20:18

I don't think it's ignorance of the law or even thinking you're above it. It's more that if you're around lots of people who are all doing the same thing and none of you fall foul of restrictions then you just get into a habit it becomes normalised. I've certainly been an "illegal immigrant" of the type Knifegrinder describes and so have loads of other people I know. And yes I could have been deported or whatever but it never crossed my mind that I would be - making crazy border trips and such was just a normal everyday part of doing my job because that's how my boss - who over the years has employed hundreds of people on the same basis -operated. It's part of the flip side to having ridiculous laws in the first place - more people will break them. Of course it puts you in a vulnerable position but you don't think of it in the same way as you would for eg going into a shop and stealing something.

Knifegrinder · 09/03/2017 20:24

Passing, if they come to the attention of the authorities because a neighbour in the next villa is annoyed with music at 3am and reports them, or one of them reports a sexual assault, or they have a RTA and are rude to the police, or are publicly drunk, piss someone off by groping one another on a sun lounger, or are found to have illegal drugs (which includes some over the counter remedies in the UK), then they're as liable to get into trouble as anyone.

Bobbi73 · 09/03/2017 20:47

There are a number of cases of women being prosecuted for being raped as they had sex outside of marriage. One woman even got arrested for being alone with her boss in his hotel even though no sexual activity occurred. It presents itself as modern but is as backward as is possible when it comes to women. There's so many countries in the world that I'd like to visit, I think I'll leave that off the list!

Butterymuffin · 09/03/2017 20:58

Knifegrinder and any other posters who have spent time unmarried in Dubai and had to stay under the radar - would it not have just been easier to get married, even if you had to make a quick trip home/across the border to do it? I know not everyone wants to, but it sounds better than having to do repeated border crossings and live constantly with the anxiety. I think one poster in this position said her partner was now her DH so presume they didn't object in principle to getting married, in which case why not do it sooner and ensure your safety?

Not that that makes any of this alright on the part of the Dubai authorities, of course. I have said for a long time I won't go there because, even though I'm married & didn't have kids beforehand etc, I don't want to contribute in any way (or benefit from) to the economy of a country that treats women like this.

YaminaZ · 09/03/2017 21:25

Not sure the words 'civilised' and 'uncivilised' really help the whole conversation..........

Madamfrog · 09/03/2017 21:28

"In practice I don't think Plod or the CPS would take any interest if Pierre who is 18 and Jeanne who is 15 , both French, both resident and domiciled in France, married there, consummated the marriage here, and I don't think they should; but I now others will differ."

They might not but their French equivalent would, you can have sex at 15 in France whatever your sexual orientation, but you can't get married until you are 18.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 21:48

What about this situation? My friend (unmarried) lived and worked in Dubai for several years before moving to the UK and having a child. She's since split from the child's father and is planning on moving back to Dubai in a few months. Is she at risk too?

Does she intend to take the child with her?

If I was her, I'd certainly not risk it. The child is proof of her having had sex outside marriage, after all. (and I'd not go there as woman anyway, you could always be raped and then imprisoned)

Why does she want to go there, anyway? Do they pay that well?

ClaryIsTheBest · 09/03/2017 21:52

Well, divorce is allowed in Dubai, isn't it?

As long as she was married when the child was conceived... But seriously. Why would she want to go to Dubai? With a daughter? Sure, they do pay well.

But I wouldn't want DD to grow up in a country that treats her inherently unequal and has laws I happen to find barbaric.
And I was married before DD was conceived and still am. It isn't just about that...

Knifegrinder · 09/03/2017 21:57

Buttery, I was (and am) not a fan of marriage, and got stubborn about it, though my then-DP wanted to, especially as I quickly grew to loathe the UAE and started plotting our departure. We did actually marry long after we'd left the UAE for practical reasons I'm still rather cross about.

Andrewofgg · 09/03/2017 22:06

Madamfrog My understanding was that the court could authorise marriage at 15 - usually because the girl is pregnant.

If that has changed then substitute any country where marriage at 15 is alwful, perhaps with the permission of the court or the parents or both.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 22:32

Madamfrog My understanding was that the court could authorise marriage at 15 - usually because the girl is pregnant.

I think I read that they want to abolish this in the US, for obvious reasons - underage girls are forced to marry their rapists, which then makes it all okay in the view of the general public.

If France still has such a law, I hope they'll soon get rid of it.

While I am sure no one wants to punish teens for having sex with each other, there is no valid reason why minors would have to marry. We have laws for child support to take care of that problem.

Not sure the words 'civilised' and 'uncivilised' really help the whole conversation

It is a conversation about why on earth women would go to Dubai voluntarily.
What it is not is a conversation where we have to appease misogynists by pretending that their laws could be called civilised in the modern meaning of the word.

True, all countries are patriarchies at the moment, and as such must be criticised, and when the word civilisation was invented, all so-called civilisations were what I would consider barbarian, but words and their meanings change, and also, things are relative. There are many, many countries where human rights are more respected than in Dubai.
Therefore, uncivilised.

You can call it what you want to call it, of course. Doesn't change the facts.

Tweez · 10/03/2017 06:59

My friend has been to a Dubai for holidays twice now and she and her husband were told not to hold hands in public places when they were out in case they get arrested. So, for the lady who posted about her sister who is pregnant and going out there, she really needs to be very careful.

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent · 10/03/2017 08:33

Reading the conversation I find a contradiction. There is almost universal condemnation for the culture in Dubai and similar countries which are governed according to islamic ideas. Although there is a sense of obeying the laws in another country.

Yet elsewhere here on MN there is an idea that people who immigrate to this country should be allowed to express their culture and identity. That would be a culture that treats women as second class objects.

ClaryIsTheBest · 10/03/2017 08:48

Yet elsewhere here on MN there is an idea that people who immigrate to this country should be allowed to express their culture and identity. That would be a culture that treats women as second class objects.

Well, we mumsnetters do have different opinions (sometimes)... ;)

But seriously, yes, some mumsnetters express these views. Probably in some case they are unaware of certain cultural aspects, romanticise a culture or have other reasons to not speak out against it.