A Tory Chancellor has just abandoned the self-employed

[longfingernails]

Hammond has raised class 4 NICs and cut the dividend allowance. AIBU to believe this is unacceptable. We need to be a low tax capitalist country which does everything to encourage entrepreneurs, whose animal spirits aren't dampened by high job taxes.

We should instead cut NI for all employers/employees. An easy initial cost saving is cutting international aid. We can also improve efficiency in public services through greater private provision, reducing the benefits cap, etc.

Bloody Tories. Not being far right enough.

And goodness, I'm the opposite of a natural Tory. I'm self employed because of Tory cuts to the area I work in.

reducing the benefits cap

It's so low it's already on the fucking floor. Unless you've got a guaranteed income for life be careful what you wish for

Welcome to the post-Brexit "war-chest".

I'm sure Scottish Labour did think that and the tories have just made exactly the same calculation. They;ll probably get away with it for as long as Scottish Labour did too.

WannaBe I don't think we do give to India any more - the Daily Mail has a not-very-secret crusade against the aid budget and often print misinformation about it. And as a percentage of GDP it's less than 1% so a drop in the ocean really.

I'm a leftie and self-employed!

You remember where 'we're all in this together' that you voted for?

This is your part.

amispartacus - no details on it but in the budget speech Hammond did say that he would be doing something about the issue you raise.

There is an argument about the self employed being generally more resilient both personally and financially but with the growth of so many being self employed not by choice but by necessity I am not so sure about that myself.

Sure. let poor people starve while those in good health enjoy their animal spirits.
''Welcome to International Women's Day, get used to being thrown under the bus by rich white men.''

JassyRadlet Again, this doesn't affect me directly. In a rare reversal of the usual direction of virtue signalling we see on MN, the BBC, the Guardian etc, I am being outraged on behalf of others.

So what's going to happen when the self employed start paying more?

Either costs of services they provide will go up - or some self employed people will lose a lot of money - and then claim it through the tax credit and benefit system.

Or they will try to go employed. But businesses want self employed people as part of the gig economy as it cuts their costs.

We can also improve efficiency in public services

I have been hearing this practically my entire life. If it was ever true, I am confident it is not true any more. It is something of a political myth trotted out to mollify anyone feeling guilty about cuts or feeling resentful about paying tax.

The pattern seems to be that politicians promise savings, and put what were previously functions performed by civil servants out to tender. The contracts are usually hopeless at imposing good oversight and sanctions for poor performance. Private companies tender at unrealistically low prices that seduce taxpayers and politicians with their delusions of getting more while paying less. Whoever gains the contract rapidly racks up additions to the tender price claiming various unknowns and spends most of the extra money on shareholder dividends and executive pay, while services deteriorate.

But my mother does say I am very cynical.

DJBaggySmalls I wasn't aware that you had to be a rich white man to be self-employed.

The self-employed are not entitled to sick pay, maternity pay or various other benefits if they find themselves out of work. They get less out of the system for their NI contributions, that's why they pay less. Oh, and they aren't all 'natural' Tories. I'm certainly not.

I am being outraged on behalf of others

How noble! In that case I'll rephrase.

This is their part.

Better?

but with the growth of so many being self employed not by choice but by necessity I am not so sure about that myself

This - there are many self employed but not by choice.

I run my own business. The budget dividend alteration has cost me. I will have to either absorb it or pass the cost on or reduce my spending on products that I need to keep my business running.

But I spend money on UK products - so that means I will reduce my spending on UK products but maybe try and source them from abroad - but then things abroad have got more expensive because of Brexit...

assuming all things are equal, not sure I could ever find it in myself to be outraged that one group of people is being asked to pay the same or slightly less tax than another personally.

you aren't outraged on my behalf longfingernails. I agree with it.

just wish that the govt had had the balls to get rid of NI and make one tax. but cant see anyone doing this in a hurry. always better to hide taxes and create new ones than to be honest and transparent about what this govt is costing us and whether or not we feel that what we pay across all of our taxes - NI, income tax, vat, business rates, council tax etc is value for money.

Taxation needs to come from somewhere, and before the moans of corporation tax come out again, that's a surefire way to scare big business out of the UK.

I don't know what the solution is. People are quick to spend money (save benefits education the nhs improve infrastructure etc) but not so quick with practicable ways of making and saving money.

I'm pleased social care is getting a boost, I wish they were getting the nhs budget on top because I feel that's the only way to save the nhs, by having an efficient and effective social care system that pays a living wage.

You're being outraged on behalf of others?

Selected others more like, given you've just advocated reducing the benefits cap again

He didn't go far enough to level the playing field. Self employment and employment through personal companies are still taxed at far lower rates than normal employment.

The compensation for the downsides of self-employment should come from higher pay, not lower tax.

Someone who has the option to pursue more or less the same type of work as an employee or as a self-employed contractor will only choose the self-employment option if it pays enough extra to offset the disadvantages.

I think the idea is to use the increased NI for better state pension for the self employed.

I don't know much about the self employed or taxes but I do not lots of self employed who earn minimum wage on their tax return but actually earn thousands & thousands more. Their wife is usually listed as a director, does nothing but also takes dividend payments. I'm sure they will find a loop hole to make up for their loss.

Man10 - that assumes that everyone chooses to be self employed.

try being in your late 50's / early 60's and looking for a decently paid job.

I'm self employed and I support this. With the plethora of benefit cuts, which I oppose, I have been feeling uncomfortable for a while that I pay a lower rate of tax, once NI is taken into account, than someone who earns exactly the same amount as me who is employed.

WTF is an 'animal spirit'?