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To wonder how males are allowed to compete and win in female sports

389 replies

Bambambini · 06/03/2017 21:56

NZ weight lifter Tracey Lebrechts has had her nationsl records broken and her place in the National team taken by a male Laurel Hubbard - previously Gavin. How is this fair and just why is this allowed?

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/nz-weightlifting-body-stands-decision-let-first-transgender-weightlifter-compete

OP posts:
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Beachcomber · 07/03/2017 17:09

Trifleorbust describes the situation of a woman athlete losing her place to compete for her country to a transwoman as "unfortunate".

"Unfortunate" strikes me as an oddly passive word to use. None of this is down to chance - the situation would be better described as "inevitable" and "anti women" IMO.

And that is why women care about this shit - because it is anti woman and inevitable because we live in a world which favours men over women. Women always get called haters when they point out that men are trampling over us and our humanity. It's the oldest and laziest trick in the book. Feminists have been getting called man haters since forever and calling us transphobes is just another spin on that. Same goes for the tone policing - women are allowed to mildly disagree with misogyny but only if they do so politely in dulcet tones whilst showing respect to misogynistic men. Know your place wimmen in other words.

This incident is an outrage. It's doubly outrageous because it is exactly what all the liberal transmaidens told us we were transphobic scaremongering haters for predicting would happen when self identification became a thing. Just like all the other erosions of women's spaces, rights, safety, voices and representation. They are all being colonized by transwomen and at an alarming rate. The liberals told us that this wouldn't happen. Now it is happening they tell us we are oppressive haters because we object. Goodness knows where this will all and up. I think we're fucked for at least a generation. It's going to be hard to get our humanity and right to define and be a class back again. We have become the classless sex class - we exist as a class to be oppressed but not as a class to oppose that oppression.

And all that so that a small group of men can live out a woman hating fetish or exercise homophobia. God how they hate us (and yet we are accused of being the hate filled ones!).

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:10

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog:

I have already said I have no wish to elaborate on my views. Putting pressure on me to do so isn't going to persuade me that I do want to. It just supports my view that some people can't accept "no" as an answer.

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:11

Beachcomber:

What is "unfortunate" is a situation where two people's needs cannot be reconciled. I didn't say it wasn't an issue and nor will I say that.

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:12

MsGameandWatch: I don't want or need you to retract them.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:12

I have no issue with "no".
I have issues with people accusing me of bigotry and trans hate.
You refused to point out those posts and served only to state they were on this thread and seen as i am a contributor your disambiguous post could include me.

You really dont like being held accountable for your actions do you?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/03/2017 17:13

Incidentally, this is a very informative and thoughtful article on testosterone levels, in the context of intersex athletes. It's an interview with Joanna Harper (who is a transwoman, and an athlete and a sports scientist who advises the IOC). I think she's in the same camp as tumbletrans, in that she acknowledges biological difference and is interested in making and keeping sport fair.

(I don't agree with her on everything - for instance, I think height is more of an issue in some sports, such as basketball, rowing or high jump - than she does. It's one of the sexually dimorphic characteristics with the biggest d-value in statistician's terms - in that the ratio of difference in means to spreads of distributions is large.)

MsGameandWatch · 07/03/2017 17:14

I think that's bang on beachcomber. I have been posting on MN for quite a while and I remember certain posters warning of this a good five years ago, one of them said she had been seeing it coming for a decade. I didn't care then, I will be honest, younger and unaffected and I didn't have a daughter then. I believe it will get much worse before it gets better sadly.

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:14

SookiesSocks: Then "no" it is. I do not want to explain what I said further. No.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/03/2017 17:16

It was a polite request on my part to actually join in with the topic of the thread - but if you want to interpret that as bullying, I suppose there's not a lot I can do about that, Trifle.

If anyone else is interested in the way I've framed the issue (and would like to spend a bit of time on the interview with Joanna Harper - it's long but really worth a read if you're seriously interested in the science behind these issues), I'd be interested in feedback.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:17

No further explanation needed Trifle its quite clear for all to see what your agenda was all along.

I suppose if there is nothing further for you to say you will be leaving the thread?

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:18

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog: However polite you were (your words were polite), you were still totally ignoring my stated preference to not elaborate on my views, even after I had said that people demanding/insisting made me feel that they were bullies. That is not polite.

Trifleorbust · 07/03/2017 17:19

SookiesSocks:

I am happy to reply to anybody who directs comments at me. "I suppose you will be leaving the thread" is another classic bullying tactic that will not work. I will post in response to others if I want to.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:21

Yes dear.

Beachcomber · 07/03/2017 17:23

MsGameandWatch - yes, radical feminists predicted all this. It is heartening to see that many women on here and elsewhere are objecting to the erosion of women's rights by the trans juggernaut but I fear it is too late. I think things will have to get a lot worse before they will get better again. A lot of people are going to be harmed in the meantime, including a lot of people with genuine gender dysphoria.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:24

MsG

About 2 years ago I didnt care either. I was very ignorant and did not see how what somebody wore or what they called themself could impact on the rights of women.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/03/2017 17:25

It's a bit like having one of our resident trolls from FWR on the thread. It's a very successful derail. I suggest we just talk round the attempted derail and address the issues instead.

I'd like to take the discussion back to the trans teen wrestler in the states. It strikes me that girls are screwed either way. Either the conservatives in the state education board get their way and the wrestler is forced to wrestle in the girls' divisions, in which case they're fighting someone who is conducting legally sanctioned doping. Or the progressives on the "right side of history" get their way, in which case the trans teen goes into the boys' divisions, and the girls get post-pubertal trans girls with all the additional natural testosterone and musculature. They're screwed either way.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:30

Fallon Fox was was the point it home for me in regards to womens sport.
Could not make it in the mens section so instead spends their time knocking shit out of women and being paid for it Hmm

Dormouse200 · 07/03/2017 17:33

Tumble, I hope you find the help you need and thank you for such a thoughtful sensitive post.

Beachcomber · 07/03/2017 17:34

Self identification is where things took an abrupt turn for the worse. Weirdly it is also where liberals failed to notice that the transgender movement was throwing actual transsexuals under the bus plus becoming a regressive homophobic men's rights movement masquerading as something progressive.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/03/2017 17:37

Yes, I remember talking to a male MMA fan (who was in no way your typical feminist) about Fallon Fox, Sookie, and he pointed out that prior to transition, Fallon had not been in the national rankings at all. Fallon then transitioned at an age when most fighters of either sex are retiring (because like most sports, you're over the hill by your early thirties - barring some long-distance endurance sports). Suddenly Fallon was unbeatable in the women's MMA rankings, against much younger women (one of whose jaws Fallon broke). And yet I've seen fawning articles in the Guardian about how many barriers Fallon broke and how trail-blazing Fallon's career was.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:44

Fallon married a women at 19 fathered a child joined the navy and at aged 31 popped over to Thailand got breasts and genital surgery.
Apparently those 30 years spent living as a man, having a mans strength and bone density have nothing to do with the 5 out of 6 wins fighting born women Hmm

Beachcomber · 07/03/2017 17:47

TumbleTrans sorry to hear of your struggle.

I think it is really sad that it has become so taboo to talk about gender dysphoria in terms of mental health. I find it is another contradiction from the liberals - gender critics are implored to have empathy and sympathy for the struggles of trans people yet that empathy must not take the form of sympathy and understanding of mental health. Do you feel listened to when you talk about your situation in terms of mental health?

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/03/2017 17:50

Laurel Hubbard, the trans weightlifter in NZ is I believe older, and has had a career in weightlifting as a man already. And yet, when transitioned to be a transwomen, they are suddenly international/Olympic standard and breaking records left right and centre. That's not a very convincing position from which to argue that transwomen have no advantage over women.

Beachcomber · 07/03/2017 17:51

SookiesSocks that's cos Fallon was a woman all along! Even when his sperm was fertilising future babies. It was ladysperm. Not only men produce sperm dontcha know.

Alternatively the above is a load of crap and Fallon was a man then and is a man now.

SookiesSocks · 07/03/2017 17:53

That could explain it Beach Grin

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