To wonder how males are allowed to compete and win in female sports

[Bambambini]

NZ weight lifter Tracey Lebrechts has had her nationsl records broken and her place in the National team taken by a male Laurel Hubbard - previously Gavin. How is this fair and just why is this allowed?

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/nz-weightlifting-body-stands-decision-let-first-transgender-weightlifter-compete

It's not fair OP. There was a reason to have sex categories in the first place and that was the biological differences between men and women.

Oh and no I don't hate trans people as a group and no one has posted anything remotley hate filled that's why trifle you can't quote can you? Don't pull the 'I am too bored and intelligent to engage with you others' it's not washing is it?

Why do you want to shut down s debate about the erosion of women's rights? Tell us.

Also, to the bigots, I hope one of your kids identify as trans so you'll understand how bloody difficult being trans is.

There's no need for you to hope that one of my kids "identifies as trans" () to understand how difficult being trans is; I know how difficult it is because I'm fucking living it. I have fucking lived with it every day for nearly 23 years now.

Do you not understand the damage throwing out accusations of transphobia and bigotry anytime someone disagrees with you does to people like me who are trans gendered, Astoria7974? People like me who are genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia?

Throwing out accusations of transphoboa and bigotry means that I am now unable to find a therapist to help me with my mental illness (and yes, that is what it is!) because all of them are terrified of being labelled a bigot for not going along with the narrative that I'm a woman.

It's accusations of transphobia and bigotry which mean people like me are being kicked out of support groups simply because we disagree that we are women and want to be accepted as being trans women instead.

It's accusations of transphobia and bigotry which mean that I am scared of speaking out and disagreeing with the transactivists and their narrative because I now get death threats/threats of violence from them. Ironic really considering they are supposed to be helping people like me.

It's accusations of transphobia and bigotry that mean I no longer want to be associated with anything to do with the trans movement because the loud and vocal TRA's are making us look like a bunch of entitled twats.

As someone who has been on the receiving end of real transphobia, quite frankly I find it insulting that what gets said on here is being labelled as transphobic and bigoted.

Disagreeing with gender self identification is not transphobia. Recognising that men and women are different and that some places such as sports and prisons should be segregated by SEX and not gender is not transphobic. Saying that penis = male and vagina = female is not transphobic.

If everyone on here is so so bigoted Astoria7974, could you please tell me why I have had lots of support and sympathy for what I am going through? Far more than any so called trans rights activist has shown me.

I'd support separate categories for transwomen and transmen to allow fair competition. Nothing about transitioning your gender will change an adult biological male's height, skeleton, lung capacity, size of heart etc. Testosterone is only one small part of the differences between male and female.

Oh and Astoria7974, you can't "identify as trans". You either have gender dysphoria or you don't. There is no "identifying" about it.

Tumble

Thank you tumble for that post - and I'm sorry I went off on one last night, and was less than sympathetic. I do try to distinguish between the trans-activists who are driven by misogyny and transwomen like you, who I have every sympathy for, and would like society to be a hell of a lot more accepting of, and I'm sorry if sometimes anger gets the better of me (Kellie Maloney writing unctuous articles in the Graun and the trans rapist on the run in Derby tipped me over the edge last night I'm afraid).

I wish you all the best in your journey to become comfortable in your own skin, and hope that somewhere out there, there's a counsellor who is sufficiently free from dogma to help you, rather than some abstract set of trans ideals.

Tumble

This is one of the things that makes me angry about TRA is that not only are they throwing biological women under the bus they are throwing trans people who don't follow their agenda under the bus too. The only interests they care about are their own and they don't seem to care who suffers in the fall out.

Your post was very measured Tumble given what you were replying to.

I doubt that gem by Astoria will be deleted but then again if it stays at least others can see that the foul upsetting posts are not posted by those of us who want to protect womens rights.

BevGoldbergsSister:

Well, that wasn't my intention. Thank you for explaining what unsettles you about my posts.

From my perspective (and perhaps I dug my heels in but this feeling usually does make me do that) the posts in reply to my initial comment made me reluctant to be bore forthcoming, mainly because of the level of aggression/demand that I do so. Some of the replies sounded like they came from bullies to me - people who, and I may be wrong, are used to questioning-interrogating and not being told "no".

*more

Ahhh more name calling.
Its pretty much all you are capable of Trifle

You were being goady. You were called on it. Thats not bullying but if you believe it to be then i suggest you report the bullying posts.

Doyouwantabrew:

I am not forcing you to respond to me, nor am I trying to shut down your debate. I have simply told you I do not wish to elaborate on my post. You have thrown your dummy out. Sounds like you are not used to someone telling you no. Well, that isn't my problem.

trifle bringing threads onto other threads = bad form - again from you. I won't be clarifying what happened on that thread because I just don't need to. My comments obviously stung though.....

Your behaviour on this thread leaves me feeling thoroughly vindicated in my perceptions of you on all the threads you're on. On this one in particular though, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about and are completely out of your depth, you're literally making things up that anyone who reads the thread can see are not true. It's embarrassing to witness tbh.

SookiesSocks:

I have no wish to report anyone. I am not bothered by anyone's posts. As I say, I don't wish to expand on what I have said. You seem unable to accept this. It's odd, but I am not goading you at all.

A few years ago I couldn't have cared about these issues. I just thought everyone should do what they want. We had a MTF transgender at work, no bottom surgery but used the female toilets. I didn't have a problem then BECAUSE I didn't understand the implications. The fact that sports stats will be wrong, the fact that equslity stats at work will be screwed as more MTF get the senior jobs but identify as females. The fact that all of the rights that women many years ago campaigned for will be erased.

MsGameandWatch:

Ironically, that is exactly what you were doing on your thread - bringing up other threads. Still, I respected your right to disengage. I respect it now. Please do avail yourself of that right.

tumble great post. I think it's desperately important to realise that the extreme trans activists do not speak for all trans people. Their aggression, threats and shutting down of debate means that those who are just getting on with it are not being heard and are suffering hugely as a result.

Oh and Astoria7974, you can't "identify as trans". You either have gender dysphoria or you don't. There is no "identifying" about it.

I'm not sure I agree with this. My very strong impression is that trans people with gender dysphoria are a bit of a minority in the trans movement now that the trans umbrella seems to encompass anyone who does not "identify with their gender" so that would include (somewhat ironically) all is gender critical TERFS.

Trans now seems to be those with gender dysphoria, those formerly known as transvestites, autogynephiliacs, girls trying to identify out of oppression, boys trying to identify into female spaces, those of any of the new made up genders, special snowflake...

This is all getting a bit "Darkness at Noon" - we're going to arrest you, but not tell you what you've been arrested for.

Re. including transwomen in women's sport, I suppose there's a range of views you could take.

Complete denial that there is such a thing as sexual dimorphism in sporting performance (yes, I have seen at least one poster espouse this, despite huge amounts of evidence to the contrary).

Acceptance that there is sexual dimorphism, but coupled to claims that natural sporting ability varies anyway, so it's no more or less unfair than some XX women being better than sport than others.

Arguing that you can include transwomen if they lower their testosterone levels to the range permitted for XX women.

Arguing that even if you lower testosterone, there are other issues (narrower hips, greater height, the sort of muscle memory issue raised upthread) that means you still haven't levelled the playing field.

If you genuinely wanted to contribute to the thread Trifle, you could say which of these positions you favour, or if I haven't captured your views on transwomen in women's sport, tell us what your actual views are.

Of course I wont accept it.

You have accused posters of bigotry and trans hate. Two things that will get posts deleted and could also get the posters account banned. Pretty strong accusations so I think its fair to ask you to back them up.

You refused to do so after the first poster asked and that was only on page 3. You then used the slurs again and again you refuse to back them up.

Like I said earlier you have only devalued yourself and any opinions you hold because of your poor attitude and behaviour.

SookiesSocks: I didn't accuse anyone specifically of anything. Not so I intend to. You really don't like hearing "no", do you?

*nor do

I think I spoke of my general perception of you as lacking critical thinking skills and this made me unwilling to debate with you. I'm sorry those comments bothered you so much but I cannot retract them, especially after your behaviour on this thread.