To have asked for £160 from a single mum on income support

[lucindia]

I'm a childminder. I looked after a child for a single mum on income support. She was doing the 15 hours free hours. She phoned to tell me she would be sending her daughter to the local school in 4 weeks time.

So I contacted the funding department to explain that I would no longer be having the child and the date that would start.

They got back to me and said they would only be able to pay the first week of the notice period and the rest would have to be paid for by the parent.

Even though the mum had given me a months notice, I didn't actually have her child at all during that month. The day she text to say she would be going to school in a months time, was the day she stopped coming to me as the Mum was visiting family for a month.

But I was still entitled to be paid for that month. It was also a compulsory notice period.

So I sent a very polite message to the Mum explaining that she would have a balance of £160 to pay as the funding department could only pay 1 weeks notice.

She said that was fine but would need to wait until her income support payment came in the next day and would then send me that. She would send the £60 the following week from her child tax credit.

I thought nothing of it.

I mentioned it in passing to my mother in law (who I get on very well with) and she said she couldn't believe I made her pay £160 when I never even looked after her child for that notice period month and that seeing as my husband and I have a joint income of 40k we could have easily afford to let her off with the £160 which was a lot for a single mum on income support.

I never considered I was doing anything wrong. I'm entitled to be paid for that month and there's a notice period for a reason.

I really like the girls mum and we always had a great relationship when her daughter was with me. She's been with me from before she was 1 as her mum was finishing university.

What do you think. Was I unreasonable to ask for the money?

She's on benefits but qualified in a professional job and job hunting. So does have options.

It's a tricky one. If you were in her situation how would you want to be treated? Do you believe in karma?!

oh give over -karma? the lp even asked what the balance was

the op is running a business not a charity

I am a private tutor and often have cancellations at short notice. The contract says I can charge, however, I rarely do as I think, if it was me I would be a little aggrieved at having to pay for something I never had. Saying that, these are usually a one-off and I let this go for the sake of good relations. If I knew the person was on income support, despite the contract, I would enforce it, but would probably have reduced it to half price. It is her contractual obligation, however, having had to pay childminders myself over many, many years, I did feel aggrieved at having to pay when my children were ill and I took a day off work, lost money (wages) and had to pay to boot - this was before free childcare and ALL costs were borne by me. It is a matter for you, but I very rarely insist on payment if I do not tutor. Many parents pay it voluntarily. You have not done anything wrong - I just am a bit more lenient I guess.

It's a tricky one. If you were in her situation how would you want to be treated? Do you believe in karma?!

'Karma' references generally sound a bit silly.

I'd want to honour any small business person's notice period so that they wouldn't lose income.

FYI joan I've never had a tutor who was lenient about their cancellation period. I always pay if I cancel within 24 hours, but the tutors I've dealt with have had pretty tight schedules and otherwise would have lost money.

Opal it doesn't make a difference that the LP didn't use the last month of her contract, as far as the government was aware she was using otherwise wouldn't she have had to pay all 4 weeks if there was no child using the funded hours? Unless the OP chooses to clarify further then all we can go on is the information given which is that the LP followed the terms of the contract, giving 4 weeks notice and the OP then immediately informed the government who then said they only pay for one week. The OP was surprised by this so apparently wasn't aware.

So in summary, LP followed the terms of the contract correctly but then received a bill which may or may not have caused by the OP informing the government too early. Without further information we cannot assume anything else, so all we can assume is that the LP did nothing wrong here but possibly the OP did.

YANBU you're a business not a charity and if she'd struggle to pay you she should have given her notice for the 4 weeks previous to her family visit then it would have been covered by the funding. If your mum has such an issue with you charging her maybe she should give her the money back?

Museum of Curry -yes I am aware what other tutors do. I was simply stating how I conduct my business. Perhaps the reason I am more lenient is because I have had some very, very tough times in my life prior to becoming a teacher/tutor and I find it distasteful that people should be forced to pay for something they have never had - in these circumstances I try to compromise so that my expenses are covered. These are my ethics and are not typical of the tutoring profession - I am aware of this.

but joanopie it could well be argued that by choosing to be lenient you're undermining the market for other tutors who can't afford to let people off their contractual obligations.

I am not undermining anyone - I simply conduct my business as I see fit. I do not ask anyone else to conduct their business my way and I should not be forced into their ethical stances with which I am unconfortable. The childminding and tutoring business have one thing in common - personal relationships. If a child likes and settles well with a childminder or a tutor, then the parent is happy as long as progress is being made (and they will not mind paying). This is the test of a tutor in particular, not whether someone is cheaper or more lenient. I am in the business of tutoring and if children thrive, learn and progress from my methods (and they do) how I choose to run my financial affairs is my business, as is the case of the original person who posted. I simply posted an alternative way of looking at it, which she is quite at liberty to ignore completely, in the same way I choose to ignore other tutors' rules.

No, you're not being unreasonable, but why not let it go? You sound like you have a comfortable life, a reasonable income and a wise & warm Mother in law. I was forced to give up work to care for my disabled daughter 10 years ago. we have one wage coming in, money is always tight and there are always tough choices to be made. Days or nights out are rare and holidays are off the agenda. However, last Friday, the 3rd of March, we did manage to go out for a meal for our daughters 12th birthday. She is rarely included in anything and usually overlooked for invites to parties etc so it was all the more special. However, nothing could prepare us for what happened at the end of our meal. We sat opposite a Gentleman and struck up a conversation while we waited for our food to arrive. He was refreshingly open and we told him we had taken her out for her Birthday and explained that the nature of her disability meant that she could be very loud and if it became too much of a problem we would take her out. He said "No, it's fine. She's going nowhere!". After a bit more conversation our food arrived and we settled down to enjoy. The Gentleman left sometime before we finished and at the end of our meal we asked for the bill. The waitress blushed a little and went off only to return a few minutes later with the manager. We had no idea what was going on and wondered what the problem was. It was then the manager revealed that the gentleman sat opposite had paid our bill before he left!
We sat in stunned silence for what seemed like an eternity, before the manager added that the gentleman had requested that he (The manager) on his behalf, wish us all the best for the future - which he duly did. That was three days ago, and we haven't been able to think about anything else. Since the birth of our daughter i thought i had experienced every emotion (good & bad) there was to feel but this was a complete shocker. I have found myself welling up a few times over the weekend and have made my excuses and left the room to have a cry. Nobody has ever done anything like this for our daughter (or us) and i am still feeling stunned by it. We will never know this gentleman, or ever be able to thank him but we will never forget his kind gesture. I suppose what i am trying to say is, at the end of the day, it's just money. Unless you desperately need it why not let it go - it may be a lifeline for this lady. Don't get too hung up on it, enjoy the things in life that really matter - the people you love.

In the meantime to the Gentlman who touched our lives in Shrewsbury on the 3rd March, as a thank you, an Irish blessing:-

May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind always be at your back,
May the sunshine warm upon your face;
the rain fall soft upon your fields
and until we meet again,
may god hold you in the palm of his hand.

Sounds to me like the OP jumped the gun with the notice. The parent gave 4 weeks notice as per the contract. So lets pick as an example the last day of her notice would be 30th March. She has therefore secured that place until that date whether the child uses it or not.

Instead of the Op telling the government the last day of care would be 30th March it sounds like she told them the date the parent gave her notice. They then only covered one further week thinking the parent no longer needed childcare after this as they pay only 1 week notice.

Free childcare should mean zero cost to the parent. It should not matter what the notice period was for the CM. The OP should and was given 4 weeks notice, as per contract. But the funding should have been given 1 weeks notice. So the OP should have informed the funding 1 week before the end date of 30th March, not the date the parent gave her her stipulated 4 weeks notice.

Whether the child was there or not is irrelevant. The place was secured until 30th March and should have been funded. The fact the OP gave the funding the incorrect end date to the childcare means she should have suffered the shortfall.

(I'll reiterate I used 30th of march as an example date to make my point clearer)

You are right to be question the ethics of what you're doing. Why don't you just try to fill the space and if you can, then let her off?

I've been furious being asked to pay a months notice period for my daughter's after school care. There is a waiting list so they'll be able to fill the space immediately and not lose a penny.

So in the end, the'll fill the space and then charge us a month for nothing. earning double the money for the month while we suffer. It's disgusting behaviour. We earn 650 per month each and that money is a serious drain.

I can understand if it results in you losing money but if you can pick up another child then let her off.

I am not undermining anyone - I simply conduct my business as I see fit

I don't mean to get at you but they're hardly contradictory. If you're creating the expectation among parents and tutees in your local market that you don't have to pay for last-minute cancellations, that may well be harming the business of other tutors who do expect to be paid for booked time even if the client doesn't use it. It depends how often it happens I suppose and how clear you make it that it's dependent on your good will.

This assumes that parents discuss their children's tutoring on a regular basis when in fact they don't. Many children and/or parents do not wish anyone to know their child is being tutored and those that are recommended are because of my skills as a teacher not because I am the cheapest - in fact I am not. The consideration I give in waiving the odd fee - and it is the odd one - is when a child is ill because no parent can plan for illness. Once again as I said before, having to pay nursery fees when my child was ill (no free childcare at this time), losing wages and being a single parent, I felt very aggrieved at having to pay full cost as my child was ill. Life was hard enough at the time and I had no choice but to work. I did pay it, but I always remember the feeling that I was doing my utmost to try and get out of my situation and it was so very difficult. This is why I do not mind waiving the odd fee for people when their child is ill.

If you're the one liaising with the funding department, should you have known they wouldn't cover the full notice period? If so you should certainly make sure parents know that before they give their notice so they can budget accordingly. It might still be good to do so in any case, to avoid future unpleasant surprises all round.

As for BU, was the mother reasonable in expecting that her notice period would be paid by the 15 hours funding? Is that also what you were expecting? If so I would say the reasonable thing for you to do would be share the cost 50/50 and be better prepared next time. If she knew that her 4 weeks notice wouldn't be covered in full when she gave her notice, nothing unreasonable in asking her to pay the difference.

Willow2017 I think the pp here would find you exempt because your need is greater than op . So many saying don't charge if you can afford it. I know plenty with money problems who are on 6 figures joint income, because they have over committed themselves, and as previously stated LPs who would be so degraded at the idea that they cannot budget their money and pay their bills because they are on a low income.

It makes me so mad, this idea. There are many business people I know who are charitable but in a positive and respectful and voluntary way. E.g. The local butcher donates fresh meat vouchers to the food bank. He doesn't look at someone's marital status or if they are in receipt of benefits and decide they need charity. FYI I only know that because I help with the foodbank - he doesn't use it as an advertisement, virtue signalling what a horrid term or anything.

People find this foodbank/are directed to it. Forcing charity on someone is so fucking offensive I can't even begin to communicate it.

Standard good practice would be to ask for the contractual amount to be paid. But in the meantime to make a reasonable extra effort to find a replacement client (e.g. ask existing clients to spread word, make a Facebook post, put up a card on community notice board). Then refund any monies pro-rata when new client starts.

If you did something that then YANBU. If you just sat back and thought "easy life for a month" then you were a bit unfair.

It would depend for me if I could afford to 'suck it up'. If I couldn't replace the customer for that month and would financially struggle without the money I would charge.

If I wasn't struggling or could replace the customer I would not let a young Mum on her own with a child use the money given to her by the Government to survive to pay me no.

Maybe because 10 years ago I was in this situation and it was awful.

Opal it doesn't make a difference that the LP didn't use the last month of her contract, as far as the government was aware she was using otherwise wouldn't she have had to pay all 4 weeks if there was no child using the funded hours?

No, the govt has offered a conciliatory weeks notice payment to the cm in the knowledge that LP is not using the service anymore. The budget for this is for free childcare hours, not to be spent paying for service users mistakes when they haven't read their contract correctly and caused the cm to lose out on business.

If the LP was still using the service and had enough of her 570hours quota left she would have left after the using the service for the final four weeks notice with no financial penalty.

The government, like the op, is not a charity.

Where, in the information the OP has given, can you find that she told the government that the LP would not be using those 4 weeks Opal?

So I contacted the funding department to explain that I would no longer be having the child and the date that would start

My understanding of that is that the OP told the funding department when the contract would end (4 weeks from when the OP contacted them) and gave that date as when she would no longer be having the child as she still had the space open for the child (otherwise she'd be breaking the terms of her own contract). If the OP instead told the funding department that the LP had given her 4 weeks notice but was removing the child immediately then you would be correct but why would the OP say that, especially as then she would be breaking her own contract? Unless the OP clarifies we have to assume that my understanding is the correct one. If its not, and your understanding is correct, then the OP is even more guilty because she's breaking her own contract.

If the funding issue was because the LP had used up her 570 hours then surely that would have been in the OP, otherwise the whole funding discrepancy in the OP would be a red herring.

We, as childminders, are a professional body working with with because sometimes you have to repay yourself the government...! If I neglected to tell them something as vital as the client will be on holiday while you are paying me for their hours that would be malpractice!

repeat (🙄 every time I make a strong point, ffs)

Then the OP wouldn't be keeping the space open for the LP's child during the notice period, which would be against the terms of the contract. And it does not say in the op whether or not the OP said that to the funding department. However it does say in the op that the funding department would only cover one week notice - it does not say that is because the child was not there. Unless the OP clarifies that we cannot assume that.