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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think DD's punishment from PE teacher was draconian?

867 replies

moonlightshadow1 · 01/03/2017 17:15

DD is in Year 10 and came home quite annoyed about a punishment she got in PE for something very minor in the first place. Her teacher made her get changed into her PE kit at lunchtime (without any tracksuit in the cold wet weather), and run laps around the football pitch for all but the last 15 minutes of the break (so she could eat), much of it whilst the boys were having football practice, who apparently found it quite funny. Is it overreacting to think this is a bit out of order? I might not have been surprised when I was at school but I can't help be a bit annoyed, seems a bit like it was intended to embarrass her and unnecessary.

OP posts:
Jenniferb21 · 03/03/2017 09:57

Sorry I'm late replying. No I don't think detention is humiliating at all. Detention is a standard and widely accepted practise across the education sector. How many times have you heard of this method?

If it occurred after school when everyone was at home it wouldn't have been humiliating and I bet the teacher wouldn't have done that... well she didn't. The whole point of making her do that was to embarrass her in front of other people which is a form of bullying and humiliation.

Someone asked what you should have to do in detention? Lines? Additional homework? Sit in silence and think about their goals/ ambitions and why they have an education? Watch a video about unfortunate children around the world who don't have access to free education and have to work etc etc.

Unfortunately I was chatty and had a few during my time at school it did make me think about what I did wrong and it's your time after school so it is a good prevention.

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 03/03/2017 10:04

When I first came on this thread, I thought it was another Precious Little Snowflake issue. But I am also a mother who really struggles with making the right decisions for my son. I really think you need to contact the school. You don't need to be particularly assertive or aggressive - simply ask what happened. Your child is unhappy and now you're unhappy. The trials of parenting. Just call them. And tell DH to show a bit more fucking interest in future - it shouldn't be down to you.

CecilyP · 03/03/2017 10:14

I with Jess. OP, you sound very suggestible but you really don't need mumsnet permission to bring this up with the school if you feel uneasy about what happened (as I certainly would). I see from your later posts that you are going in to school today anyway; I would make it the first item you discuss rather than whatever else you had planned.

ElvishArchdruid · 03/03/2017 10:17

I think if you validate her behaviour, you're making a rod for your own back, it's likely to cause further shit storms between the teacher and child.

She was angry, not unconsolable, doesn't that tell you the punishment had its intended effect, your DD will be reluctant to repeat said behaviour, plus others may also think twice about being the class clown.

If you validate her behaviour, you're saying that she was in effect wrongly punished.

You stated they've had run ins in the past, possibly a clash of egos?

If I offer a different perspective, I was high achieving at school, it irked me, even though I was from a council estate, that such ill mannered children were disrupting my education. You've had the teachers POV, I feel it necessary to say that it could have been a pupils favourite lesson, they wanted to get as much from it as they could, due to your daughters behaviour valuable time was lost.

You stated yourself that she can be 'lippy' and this teacher has said, enough, I won't tolerate it, continue to act out I will continue to highlight your lack of co-operation on the matter.

Another example, DS doesn't get on with a certain teacher, DSis didn't like her that much either, so DH goes all guns blazing validating his behaviour. He's a bit younger than your DD so they expect a bit of immaturity, but he has this teacher an hour a week, there's always a clash because DH/DSis/Nephew think said teacher is draconian. I feel he has to learn whether you're madly in love with your teacher or hate them with a passion, they have a job to do. Yes being the class clown is funny to surrounding mates, but I think from the perspective of pupils who lose out due to his behaviour, plus the poor teacher.

I do believe teachers have a difficult time in the first place, over worked and underpaid. I know a teacher and for a seemingly strong person, the stress has affected her physical health. I also believe parents add to the stress when they go, 'Oh my little snowflake should be treated this way.' Then you have the children exhibit a 'you can't touch me' persona, which adds to an existing burden.

My final point is, your daughter is sporty, she was held back from participating, she was given what the teacher saw as an appropriate punishment. Yes the lads found it entertaining, but I doubt a boy would be treated different, their punishment during class is likely to be more humiliating. She is angry, some would suggest that's the desired effect to nip bad behaviour in the bud. If your daughter wasn't sporty and hated PE, I could understand why as a parent you'd be upset, but it appears her ego is merely bruised.

Speak to the form tutor, ask about her behaviour in general during other lessons, if this is isolated, mark it as a clash of personalities and move on. Should your daughter be unfairly targeted, then you have reason to be hopping mad. Write it off this once, should there be a repeat where your daughter isn't to blame, by all means take a different approach.

Just don't let your DD think she can behaves how she wishes. Regardless of whether she's doing the school a favour being in teams. Advocate that in life there are times you have to agree to disagree. This is one of those times.

I hope I don't come across too harsh, we look at teachers if unaware or ignorant, thinking great working hours, many holidays. The truth is it's a profession where being salaried, you can put in 100 hours a week it makes no difference to pay. If you want to be a good teacher, you have to go the extra mile.

I wasn't sporty for obvious reasons, I hated PE, there was one teacher who initially I thought was a twat, but when we found something I was good at she was full of praise. No parental intervention, just me gritting my teeth and getting on with it.

Good luck at lunchtime.

SandyGEE12 · 03/03/2017 10:26

I agree that humiliation should never be used as a punishment. It seems clear from your post you are not against her being punishment but the nature of this punishment and the inappropriatness of refusing to allow trousers instead of a skirts. I think the answer here is seeking clarification from the head about the schools policies on punishment, and perhaps seek to change if you are not happy with it, perhaps along with other parents?

SandyGEE12 · 03/03/2017 10:27

I agree that humiliation should never be used as a punishment. It seems clear from your post you are not against her being punishment but the nature of this punishment and the inappropriatness of refusing to allow trousers instead of a skirts. I think the answer here is seeking clarification from the head about the schools policies on punishment, and perhaps seek to change if you are not happy with it, perhaps along with other parents?

moonlightshadow1 · 03/03/2017 10:29

ElvishArchdruid thank you very much for that and the luck. Really interesting, considered and helpful post which didn't seem harsh at all. Completely agree on not letting DD think she can come to me and DH and we'll back her up no matter what, especially when we want to give the opposite impression when it comes to school. I also hope your DS is resolving his differences with the teacher he clashes with!

OP posts:
moonlightshadow1 · 03/03/2017 10:32

Very much so Sandy, never disputed her being punished nor her deserving a punishment. Thank you for the advice!

OP posts:
Onthecouchagain · 03/03/2017 10:43

Sounds like a perfectly suitable punishment.

user789653241 · 03/03/2017 10:48

I still can't understand why some of you are so sure that intention of this punishment was to humiliate?

Strongmummy · 03/03/2017 11:03

I had thought that skirts were what you wore for PE with big pants underneath!!!! The appropriateness of girls' PE kits is another topic, but if it she would normally wear for sport then what's the issue?

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 03/03/2017 11:16

I think the OP needs support with the courage of her convictions. The fact you have worried so much about this shows you care. I'm sorry for my earlier posts (single mum to a DS). Trying to make the 'right' choices for your children is difficult. Bit of a learning curve, this thread - and a reminder of where I'm at.

Beachedwh4le · 03/03/2017 11:23

Seems like a slightly excessive punishment, but my DS has had to run laps before over break and lunch. He went through a period of outright belligerence towards teachers, so I thought blowing off steam with laps was fair enough, and more to the point, was probably in his best interests.

The running in front of boys is a bit of a red herring I think. I used to be on a track team and had to run laps during lunch in my pants, whilst the boys played cricket. I think you DD is probably more embarrassed about people realising she's been punished, rather than the running around in shorts aspect.

If you're really unhappy about it I would speak to the school, but be prepared to be told that your child's version of events was not entirely accurate.

babybythesea · 03/03/2017 12:10

I teach at a setting where kids come for school visits. Schools book a lesson with me that lasts 2 hours. Parents have paid for the trip - both the lesson and the transport to get to us.
In general, we get two types of classes. One sort where the kids chat a bit, you ask them to be quiet, and they are. If they are not, the teacher intervenes immediately, reminds them about manners, they pipe down, and we have a great lesson. I have time to discuss difficult concepts with them thoroughly, I might be able to show them additional items to add further interest, or give them more time to complete a particular activity or explore an area of the facility.
Second sort. I ask class to be quiet. Class is quiet for two or three minutes, then one kid makes a comment, which is answered by another kid. And suddenly the level of background noise rises and I find I am shouting to make myself heard. I ask them to be quiet again. They oblige. We let them sit on cushions, so now one child, who has managed to get hold of two cushions and balance them on top of each other, starts rocking slightly, giggling a bit, and slightly bumping a neighbour. It's all fairly quiet, all low level, but now I have to stop for the third time to ask them not to. Five minutes of the two hours gone and we're only fifteen or twenty minutes or so into the session. That's before we get to 'Get into teams of five' - first teacher lets the kids sorts themselves out but takes no nonsense of the 'my mate's in that group, I want to join them even though they will then have eight in their group...' and kids sort themselves out pretty quickly. Second teacher does not seem to be able to get on top of this and sorting out who will or won't be in a group with who, and can these guys please be in a group of eight because they promise they won't mess about and they are really good mates takes a massive chunk out of the lesson. Teacher asks, kids stand their ground and argue and refuse to move, because the teacher hasn't really got a handle on it all, because all the low level messing about went unchallenged so let's see if we can get away with this. It's amazing how quickly it can escalate from a good humoured "Come on folks, I've asked you once, let's try and manage to be quiet for the next ten minutes ok, then we can get this bit done and head over there..." to "I have asked you to not talk, you are now being rude, and we are not going to have time to complete the activities that you have paid for if you carry on like this."
And almost every time, you can tell what the class will be like from the teacher. Do they expect good standards, and show the class they do, by just saying a child's name from the back if that child is talking? Often, that's all it takes and the class is angelic after that. Or do they let it go, because it wasn't a big deal, in which case the class takes that as a signal to increase the messing around...
Ultimately, I am not their teacher. I have no sanctions. I won't see the kids again. I don't even know their names (well, some I do, by the end of two hours) - all I want to do is deliver the best lesson I can in the time you have paid for for your child. I know what you have described sounds small, but from the other side of it, small can have a really big impact, and can escalate.

I'd say that while you might feel the punishment is unsuitable, don't minimise the messing around. It might sound minor, but in my case it would be 'don't take 2 cushions to sit on' (really not a big deal) to ' don't rock about on it' to 'please leave your friend alone, don't rock into them like that' to 'don't throw the cushion...' Where is the line drawn? As someone in charge of that group, it's drawn at the very start when you say "You only need one cushion - put that second one back. We're just waiting for this young gentleman here to put his other cushion away and then we can get going...."
Sometimes kids just need to know that they have to do what they are asked, Not an approximation of it, but what they have been specifically told to do. And not doing that leads to consequences. I'd say your daughter's PE teacher could bring a class to me and we'd have a brilliant lesson, because he means what he says and the kids know it - now, anyway!

YouCanStandMeUpSpartacus · 03/03/2017 12:16

I am a teacher.

Please DO complain about this. It is totally unacceptable. As a parent I would be furious about this, for all the same reasons you are. It doesn't matter what a child has done, this is not an appropriate course of action.

The teacher in question needs some support from senior staff to implement alternative behaviour management strategies.

Userone1 · 03/03/2017 12:26

I was just saying on another thread schools should have very clear behaviour and consequences policies. They shouldn't just make up consequences as the go along.

Behaviour policy should be available on their website, I would have a read of it.

moonlightshadow1 · 03/03/2017 12:29

I will be talking to the school very soon now (not complaining though as I outlined before). This is the relevant section from their behavioural policy:

Type of discipline

Its use

Who may apply it

Department detention
(during or after school)
Duration: 30mins
These are issued to pupils for poor behaviour or lack of work in class or at home.
Class teacher and/or Head of Department. Tutor will be informed

OP posts:
Userone1 · 03/03/2017 12:43

Good for you. Good luck

Dulcimena · 03/03/2017 12:52

Will be interested to hear the outcome, OP.

Giddyaunt18 · 03/03/2017 13:46

Don't really think you have a leg to stand on. You seem ok with your DD answering back a teacher. More than likely your DD was on her last chance. Hopefully it's taught her a lesson.

dowhatnow · 03/03/2017 13:55

Havent rift but I suspect that she is often just lippy enough to annoy the teacher but not always to the point of crossing a punishable line. This was maybe the straw that broke the camels back and the teacher overreacted with the hope of squashing the lippyness in general - especially as you say they have clashed before.
Also it acts as a deterrent to the others.

I'd just say to your dd that the punishment sounded a bit harsh but that she needs to curb her lippyness in general and then it won't happen again.

The teachers do have such a hard time and this borderline behaviour is far harder to deal with than obvious bad behaviour. I think you should support the school.

dowhatnow · 03/03/2017 14:04

ATBH the embarrassment factor will have made the punishment more effective. So be it.

CarrieMyBag · 03/03/2017 15:18

Three days in and 75% think OP is being U, and all the sensible advise have fallen on her deaf ear. Your little snowflake would never survive in my school.

Now have I missed the fight behind the bike shed? OnHold? Sookie? Grin

SookiesSocks · 03/03/2017 15:26

Hi Carrie Grin

OnHold · 03/03/2017 15:46

Good luck,OP. Hope it all goes well with the school.