To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Don't have the strength to join in the debate today but I'd just like to add that plenty of feminists aren't anti trans. Queer, trans inclusive, intersectional feminist here. That probably counts as virtue signalling but hey ho!

Bluntness, could you possibly address my point rather than tone policing?

And if you find my post "abusive", the report button is over there >>>

I think you're confusing what sometimes can be a heated yet usually thorough debate with transphobia. Why can't posters raise issues that they feel passionately about in a strong way? It's an issue that arouses strong feelings and we should be allowed to debate it in a way that reflects this (within the confines of the site rules of course).

Snorkmaiden, I wouldn't call you a virtue signaller just for being an intersectional feminist. I would if I thought you don't really have the slightest interest in biological women's rights. Like many people claiming the label of feminist.

YANBU. "Tranphobia" appears to be tolerated by many users of this website to an extent that other types of discrimination wouldn't.

I think a lot of women (not just here) see trans-women as a threat. There is uproar when a trans-woman beats a natural woman to an award ("what makes them fuckin' men think they're better women than real women!") because some people think that it implies that a man who becomes a woman is not a woman, indeed is not as good as a woman.

There is uproar when the issue of trans-women using women's toilets comes up, usually people think that allowing trans-women into a women's toilet will lead them to be sexually assaulted. This is selfish bullshit. A trans-woman is much more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's toilet than a born-woman is to be assaulted by a trans-woman in the ladies.

Interestingly it always seems to be male to female transexuals who are the targets of feminists. Female to male transexuals are for the most part left alone. Using the toilet example, I have never heard of a man complaining about female to male transexuals using the men's toilets. Would the women who complain about male to female transexuals using the ladies' be happy if a female to male transexual, who looked like a muscle man pumped up on hormone therapy, was to use the ladies' toilet? I don't know, but I doubt it.

It all comes down to fear (the -phobia part of "transphobia" being particularly apt). Women who fear men often seem unable to accept that a man can become a woman, but the law is clear. Women who fear men believe that trans-women are still men, still intent on assaulting them, still objectifying them and still believe themselves superior.

Like most forms of discrimination, transphobia is based on fear, ignorance and the dislike of people who are different. It's a shame it's tolerated here to an extent that other forms of discrimination are not, but that is the same for society at large.

Yes, the suffragettes achieved much by being nice and making tea for men and pandering to their opinions about women.

Why shouldn't I believe transwomen are men, Barinatxe? I assume you've got a watertight rationale for your opinion that they aren't and I would just love you to educate me.

A trans-woman is much more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's toilet than a born-woman is to be assaulted by a trans-woman in the ladies.

I know you must have some evidence for this, would it be possible for you to post a link?

Please explain "Women who fear men often seem unable to accept that a man can become a woman" ?
Men cannot become women. Laws don't make something literally true, they make it legally true. And laws aren't always right - they tend to be made by rich white men.

barinatxe - some people think that it implies that a man who becomes a woman is not a woman ... seem unable to accept that a man can become a woman

What definition of 'woman' are you using here please?

It's weird Venus, all the evidence I have seen points the other way.

I look forward to seeing this evidence.

barinatxe the issue is that anyone can claim they are transgender now without so much as a doctors appointment.

There would be no uproar if this wasn't the case.

The new rules leave everyone open to abuse.

Yes, me too. I'm sure it won't take Barinatxe long to find it though. They seem awfully sure they're right. Who would do that without having bothered to do any research? We must have missed it, I expect.

Maybe the people who shout 'transphobia transphobia!' Should try actually engaging in the discussion rather than calling it bigotry and walking away with absolutely no evidence or explanation.

There is only so many times women can explain why cis is offensive, why women only spaces are at risk and why alternative facts regarding biological sex are dangerous and ludicrous.

A trans athlete causes uproar because it's usually a mediocre formerly male athlete who wins their events by using their still male body strength to beat other natural women. That's what pisses people off.
woukd you be happy yo have trained for years to be the best at your sport then someone who has been a man for their entire adult life enters because they feel like a woman despite having the male body strength they've always had? You'd be fine with that?

*Because a lot of transactivists are actively discriminating against women.

They want to wear dresses and use make up and call themselves female names (fine) so that means that "cis" women have to shut up, roll over and allow them access to female-only spaces (not fine). It's the epitome of male privelidge that, as usual, their desires trump our needs.

Anyway this is probably a TAAT so it'll be zapped soon.*

This ^
Put far better than I could myself but yep , I agree with this post,

AND another bold fail !

Interestingly it always seems to be male to female transexuals who are the targets of feminists

Because they are the ones who are trampling over womens rights and think that theirs are more important.

I am not transphobic. I am not afraid, I do not hate, I welcome acceptance for all people regardless of their identity. This does not mean I have to accept that men who feel like women are actually women. This does not mean I have to welcome individuals with beards and y chromosomes and penises into women's refuges. This does not mean I have to cede my own identity and biology to support someone elses agenda.

I support transwomen to be accepted as full and equal members of society. I do not support the notion that anyone who wants to call themselves a woman automatically is one.

Women, and trans-women. They are not and never can be exactly the same; not because of prejudice but because certain facts cannot be changed by force of will.

ODFO canary you are persisting in being sensible. What use is that, mmm? What use?

[hurriedly adds 'lighthearted' just in case ]

They will all flounce off now they've said their little bit about how terrible mumsnet feminist threads are. As ever. They're not interested in a reasoned discussion. Because this does not stand up to it. And they know it.

Not again...!

venus Fair enough, I can assure you that i do indeed have a strong interest in women's rights! But I'm not sure that biology is what makes a woman, or of the view that only those with certain chromosomes or genitals suffer as a result of misogyny. I think it's a very complex issues that does warrant discussion, and I'd be lying if I said I was 100% sure of how I feel about every aspect (for example, I do have some concerns about reinforcement of the gender binary, among other things), but transwomen exist in the same society as the rest of us, with the same constraints, and I don't believe that individual transwomen are motivated by the desire to oppress or harm 'biological' women. And I recognise that trans people are often victims of abuse, and try to do my best to be supportive and inclusive of those already struggling.

I don't think questions like 'what is a woman' have a simple answer. I don't know the answer. So I try to err on the side of tolerance and inclusion.