To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

It's certainly seems that way, every single time this is discussed, venus

'You're all transphobic, the feminist board... Blah blah blah...'

I agree with the OP fully and I agree with Barinatxe

I don't think questions like 'what is a woman' have a simple answer. I don't know the answer. So I try to err on the side of tolerance and inclusion

We can be tolerant and inclusive without thinking its a difficult question. I think its very easy to define a woman, and I think the vast majority agree.

Frogs ok, can you find some of these 'transphobic' posts please? Have you been reporting them?

THere are a few strands to this.

I think a part of the problem is that men are pretending to be trans to access women's safe spaces. In addition some are 'transing' (hate the verb) very young children based on childish whim. The trans movement is surely way overblown.

On the other hand, it strike me as ironic that any debate on trans is shut down with the accusation of trans phobia in the same way any attempt to question any aspect of feminism is shut down with the accusation of misogyny. There is an element of hoisted with one's own petard which makes rad fems really cross.

So how about we bring back free speech for all and stop wittering on about safe spaces (at least, in the intellectual sense of the word).

When I was on a course there was a trans man to woman (I know he was a man, he had a large adams apple and was ever so tall) .. Anyway, I got on really well with this person ,, we had smoke breaks together, she was highly interesting , bubbly and really nice . .The LOOKS some gave though . I thought her brave to be honest . She also looked fantastic in her clothes , as had the height etc ..
Just a small aside there . I said She as that is how they presented .

Snork, how can you fight for women's rights if you can't define what a woman is?

OP, do you think what Rachel Dolenz did was ok.

Its not transphobic to say lesbians dont have to have penetrative sex with a penis. Or that there is no such thing as a female penis. Or that a penis does not belong in a womans space.

If you think thats transphobic, you are trampling on other peoples hard won rights. You dont then get to be surprised when they defend their rights against your attacks.

A trans-woman is much more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's toilet than a born-woman is to be assaulted by a trans-woman in the ladies

Most men I bet would just pee and leave as fast as they could for fear of catching "the gay". It's terrible and homophobic /transphobic but it ain't violence.

No proper evidence to support of course, I'm probably talking shite.

Trifle - "A group of people who seem to pride themselves on being otherwise tolerant and mature, seem to turn into a mob when discussing people with what seem to be a range of quite debilitating MH issues."

But trans activists are insisting that this has nothing to do with MH and hence children who identify as trans are not given MH support and are instead told they are trans and pushed towards hormones - as Fish can confirm

It's, so fucking depressing OP. You're sright this can not be discussed sensibly without insults being hurled around.

You are with us or against us. Any comment about the hysteria (I use this term advisedly) and you are the tone police.

So we turn away and the thread becomes another echo chamber.

So how about we bring back free speech for all and stop wittering on about safe spaces (at least, in the intellectual sense of the word)*

Yes yes to this ^

I don't think questions like 'what is a woman' have a simple answer. I don't know the answer. So I try to err on the side of tolerance and inclusion I think that is at the heart of the cognitive dissonance, snork

We all like to think we are tolerant, don't we? Mmm! Might have to ponder that a bit more... however. In this case it seems that previous exhibitions of tolerance have been seen by a small but vocal minority as acquiescence and now, now that they are demanding more and we, females, have had a bit of a rethink, we are having to be less tolerant, as self defence.

Unpleasant, and seemingly indefensible!

I am (slowly) reading my way through all the responses.

I will be back in a few hours (I am taking DD to a birthday party) and try and catch up

I do appreciate everyone contributing to the thread by the way

Damn bold fail

And I recognise that trans people are often victims of abuse, and try to do my best to be supportive and inclusive of those already struggling.

Women are also often victims of abuse. Allowing the trans lobby to shit all over women's rights isn't something that it's possible to sit on the fence about, really. But I understand your dilemma as a person who is trying to please everyone and not offend anyone. It's not possible though.

snork why do you find it difficult to define what a woman is? Just use google or a dictionary. It's very simple. It's a biological definition, describing the class of adult humans who produce ova and can carry young.
Do you have difficulty with understanding other words?

Also I would argue that trans people are not the most bullied group - people with mental illnesses are denied a voice, discredited and are not getting policy makers on side for their benefit. Trans activists are directly attacking those with mental illnesses and pushing them towards pathways to further their own agenda.

Does CIS in this context actually stand for anything? i.e. is it an acronym? (And I'd rather not be called a CIS-woman thanks, I'm happy with woman)

I don't have a problem with MTF trans people using women's bathrooms / changing rooms etc. once they've had surgery, (and vice versa with FTM though that's not my call). But I'm not keen on it before surgery, or when a man decides he 'feels like a woman' but doesn't want surgery - he just wants to (possibly or not) dress like a woman (and since I wear men's clothes I'm not sure what counts as dressing like a woman nowadays anyway) and use women-only spaces. Surely if you feel like you were born in the wrong body you want to change that body into the right one? i.e. have surgery. A man who just dresses in women's clothes is a cross-dresser in my books, not transsexual - they're two separate things. It feels like a power-thing - some men deciding that they want their male world AND ours too. It doesn't feel like it's a legitimate born-in-the-wrong-body issue any more - and that's a shame because as usual, the people who really have issues and needs are getting sidelined by the attention-seekers.
Oh, and as a lesbian I get pissed off with it being LGBT - T is not part of LGB. Not any more. Fine in the beginning - we were all minorities together. But now it's associating the LGB bit with issues and arguments that aren't ours.

Bitofacow this is your first post on this thread, yes? So why not put forward your actual views and see if a reasoned discussion can be had?

DJBaggySmalls no I don't think disagreeing with trans extremists is transphobic!! I have never said anything like that!

Anyway, back in a bit

The way I see it is:
Most people just want to live a happy life, loving and caring for their family, trying to let others live a happy life and living to let live.
Then a group of people are anti-social. They may be transphobic. They may be mysoginistic. They may be racist or homophobic. Or whatever. They are only able to identify with people just like them and cannot empathise with anyone not like them. These people are the ones you need to worry about crossing in life. They cause most of the misery and upset. The majority of people just want to live in relative peace.
Also, at the other end of the scale you get those superhumans who give their lives to help others - who sacrifice themselves to help the rest of us live a better life.

So I think it's useful to remember that most people are passive and want a happy life and don't want to hurt others. Some people even sacrifice themselves so others live a better life. It's a small minority who dislike what isn't them.

What I see on these topics is most people having fears of the anti-social few. It's the thugs who want to do others in for whatever reason that make a transgender woman frightened of using the male toilets and want to come into female spaces. It's the same thugs that make females afraid of transwomen with penises coming into their spaces. We're all afraid of the same thing. But those anti-social people are in the minority (whilst causing maximum damage) and I think it's good to remember that we should be uniting against that common enemy, not arguing between ourselves when the vast majority of transwomen just want to take a piss in a toilet just like female women without having any rows in peace.

not arguing between ourselves when the vast majority of transwomen just want to take a piss in a toilet just like female women without having any rows in peace.

That really depends which toilet they want to take a piss in.