To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Ok shiny here's a couple more links for you.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230

shiny if you pick a random sentence from my post yes you may well wonder what anything has to do with anything but that's hardly my fault! A poster asked me about the definition of disease, I gave a ridiculously brief summary of physiological accounts, one of which relies on function, as well as social accounts, then the function was misidentified by another poster and I corrected that for the sake of consistency. None of this related to the binary nature of biological sex, this was a separate discussion.

Vestal saying there are two sexes an de then one more which is neither but in between, and still insisting that you have identified two and not three things is jibberish. If C is defined as being neither A nor B but somewhere in between them then there are three things.

Personally I think that when it comes to individuation of the sexes matters are complex and currently unclear to us without further understanding of genetics and the influence of endocrinology.

I also think that logic matters although I am beginning to lose the will to live and will retire from this discussion without further ado.

Just noticed this quote from Tumble - If trans women don't want to be viewed as entitled men who want to stamp all over women's rights then we (and it was painfully saying "we" there as I don't want to be associated with that shit) need to quit acting like entitled men who want to stamp all over women's rights.

I agree with that completely.

"'Gender identity' and 'gender' for short is a perfectly acceptable medical term for what you call sex"

No, it isn't. You are wrong.

Gender and Sex are often used interchangeably in the English language, simply to avoid using the S-word.

Gender Identity is not used interchangeably with Sex at all.

Sex is male or female. There are only 2 sexes. It is about or physical bodies, not our feelz.

Gender identity is "I feel like a woman" or "I don't feel like a man or a woman", etc. It's a feelz thing and there are (we are told these days) quite a multitude of gender identities.

I also think that logic matters although I am beginning to lose the will to live and will retire from this discussion without further ado.

You aren't using logic though. You are trying to link a questionable argument about multiple sexes to gender identity and then not clarifying what you mean because 'more research needs to be done'.

It's the classic 'Nobody really knows' retreat.

There is nothing unclear or complex about the individuation of the sexes.

There is male.
There is female.

Then there is a tiny proportion of individuals who, had they not undergone some chromosomal mutation or similar in utero, would have been either male or female, but because of that developmental 'hiccup' are neither one nor the other, and so are known as intersex.

And, in the nicest possible way, are irrelevant to a discussion about transgender issues or transactivitism because intersex =/= transgender and intersex people have asked TRAs to stop conflating the issue around them.

Booboo you are attempting to derail this entire conversation and it's fairly obvious to anyone who's been involved in these discussions before. The cases youve provided up above prove nothing concrete, there may be some statistical evidence to indicate that FTTs have an allele that contributes to their transgender identity but, id like to see a study to compare a control group of women to a group of FTTs to see if being of short stature, big boobs or broad shoulders has an influence, also lets look at genetic predispositon to autism. Just because some things are co morbid doesn't mean that there is a genetic cause for transsexualism (which is a term used in the article cited btw) and for those who couldn't be arsed reading the article the gender variance of that allele was 40% in males and 31% in females so in saying that in the group of FTT there was a gender specific distribution merely mean that 40% of that group had the expression rather than the expected 31%. It's hardly a fool proof disagnostic test is it boo?
The reality on the ground remains that people with female reproductive organs is women are vulnerable to violence and sexual abuse from the class of people with male reproductive organs i.e. Men and as such should have sex segregated spaces protected.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out....

They won't stop using the intersex argument as they see it as some kind of killer argument. They couldn't give a fuck about whether intersex people don't like it.

Wasn't it Aristotle who also believed goats breathe through their ears? Definitely not a reliable authority on biology!

Thanks for your posts, @Tumble, they are much appreciated and welcomed as a sensible voice in this discussion

Intersex people do not want to be coopted by the trans lobby quite rightly. I fully understand that but the concept of intersex is relevant because posters insist there are only 2 sexes. When there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

The medical experts have been dismissed by some posters but this is unfair. From my limited research Dr Milton Diamond has researched the subject extensively. He makes the point that dismissing intersex is wrong and suggests the use of the term 'variations' rather than 'disorders' .

The point being there is more complexity to human sex than just male and female.

Non of this negates the corrosive and unpleasant influence of the extreme trans lobby who are clearly harming their own community and wider society.

If you accept that there are females (p) and males (not p) and intersex (neither p nor not p), you have accepted three categories. That is just logic.

How many people are seeking to transition into the third category?

I think it was also Aristotle who announced that men had more teeth than women. Not that he had bothered to count.

Though it might have been someone else who said that...

the concept of intersex is relevant because posters insist there are only 2 sexes. When there is evidence to suggest otherwise

There are only 2 sexes. That's how we reproduce. We are sexually dimorphic.

Intersex is not a 3rd sex, it is a group of chromosomal abnormalities.

He makes the point that dismissing intersex is wrong and suggests the use of the term 'variations' rather than 'disorders' .

In what way is being infertile not a disorder? As I believe the majority of intersex people are? Why isn't disorder the appropriate term? I can understand people wanting more sensitive language to be used, but in some cases that is simply obfuscation, as it is with certain trans issues, and I believe it's the root cause of the problem for women's rights. Because I strongly believe the only medical basis for transgenderism is gender dysphoria, which I believe to be a mental health condition. Which should be treated and managed on an individual basis.

Both the co-option of intersex and the claim that reproductive sex is far, far more complex than it is (woo woo) are attempts to muddy the transgender waters. Transgenderism is subjective. It has no physiological underpinnings.

Bev as suggested by Dr Milton no one 'suffers' from being intersex they are just a natural variation he said "Nature loves diversity, society hates it". Interesting.

There are 'variants' to the two sexes. That will make other types of variety less threatening to many.

The key issues is can you change sex not how many variants there are. I don't think (still researching) any scientists claim humans can change sex.
That being the case why do posters insist on the two sex dogma?

Charlie "chromosomal abnormalities" apparently this is considered offensive - who knew?

The sexes have variants.

" If you accept that there are females (p) and males (not p) and intersex (neither p nor not p), you have accepted three categories. That is just logic."

That is quite far from "just logic".

There are only two sex categories of normal human biology - male (XY) and female (XX). The human species is sexually dimorphic. This is just basic - something you should have learned in secondary school Biology class.

"Intersex" is a general term used for a variety of disorders that are not part of normal human biology or development. It is frankly a sign of shocking lack of understanding that you would believe that it is a category of normal human biology.