To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Long term lurker, first time poster here

I'm not sure if the OP will even read this post considering how long this thread is now but I thought I would stick my tuppence in regardless.

I am a trans woman. I always read the trans threads on here with interest and I can honestly hand on heart say that I have never seen any trans phobic comments.

I am not a woman. I have gender dysphoria so as much as it pains me to say it; I am not a woman no matter how much I want to be one. I was born male and am still biologically male. Pointing that out is not trans phobic. Biology is not trans phobic or bigoted.

The TRA movement is very damaging, not only to women, but to trans men and women too.

It's because of the TRA's that I'm finding it near impossible now to access any help, any counseling or therapy to help me.

It's because of the TRA's that I'm just supposed to admit I was wrong and that I'm not a man and that I'm just as much of a woman as someone who was born with a vagina and uterus.

It's all thanks to the TRA's that my mental health is now in decline and I've began self harming again because I'm unable to access any therapy to help me as a result of being encouraged to just accept that I'm a woman.

I think this whole "gender identity" thing is a steaming pile of bullshit quite frankly and bloody insulting. Suggesting that Dave who just fancies being a woman that day is the same as someone like me who genuinely suffers from gender dysphoria and has been to hell and back because of it is quite frankly fucking insulting. However the TRA's are pushing the gender identity ideology big time right now and are lumping Dave and I together in the same category and that is fucking insulting.

I wouldn't dream of demanding women should just move aside and let me in to all their safe spaces. I wouldn't dream of demanding access to rape crisis centres or women's toilets or female changing rooms because I'm not an arsehole.

I believe trans women need to fight for our own safe spaces and I will happily help with that however unfortunately thanks to some loud trans activists I am reluctant to even try because I fear being shouted down by them and labelled a trans phobe and a bigot which I have been labelled with before simply for disagreeing with some loud TRA's. Yes you did read that write; I am a trans woman and have been shot down and labelled a trans phobe just for speaking out against this madness.

When I was punched in the face and spat on and called a "fag" now that was trans phobia. When I was spat on and threatened with rape and told people like me deserve to burn in a fire that was trans phobia.

Stating biological facts is not trans phobia. Stating that trans women shouldn't try to access female spaces is not trans phobia. Stating that if we want safe spaces we need to campaign for our own is not trans phobia.

There is no trans phobia on MN IMO.

In the case of transmen who become pregnant, then surely the fetus is at risk of becoming intersex, due to the unnatural presence of testosterone. As a pregnant woman what I did with my body during pregnancy was constantly policed by society. Why not for transmen?

If biological sex does not exist, and/or matter, then why would it be a problem for the child to be intersex?

As for why transmen aren't policed by the transactivists (pretty sure conservatives still do policing) ... well, transmen are needed to gain sympathy for the transwacktivist movement - if it were all adult male autogynephiles, it would be easily exposed as the attack on women's rights that it is.
Allowing some women to identify out of oppression is necessary to divide and conquer and keep women in general oppressed.

I find it extremely odd that a transman would do this. I any see how it wouldn't be psychologically devastating. However, I know that some born men with no gender issues would carry a child if science made it possible. So???!.

Trans women like danielle buck the trend...by keeping all their male attributes and wanting to invade women's spaces.

As for trans women competing in women's sports, that is bloody nuts and not to mention in some cases outright fucking dangerous for the women involved.

I'm over 6ft tall and 185lbs. I know fine well that I'm bigger and stronger that 98% of women out there given that you know I am biologically male.

How can anybody seriously think that people who are biologically male should be able to compete against women in sport? It's just madness. Just because someone suffers from gender dysphoria or "identifies as a woman" doesn't mean their biological advantages over women are going to magically disappear.

I have two sisters who both play sports; one plays rugby and the other plays hockey. I would be beyond livid if someone who was biologically male was allowed to play on their team or on an opposing team. Come on, that would be fucking dangerous for all the women involved.

If trans women don't want to be viewed as entitled men who want to stamp all over women's rights then we (and it was painfully saying "we" there as I don't want to be associated with that shit) need to quit acting like entitled men who want to stamp all over women's rights.

Sorry for all the typos there.

When I was punched in the face and spat on and called a "fag" now that was trans phobia. When I was spat on and threatened with rape and told people like me deserve to burn in a fire that was trans phobia.

Thank you for reminding people of that.

I think we can safely assume that the people who did that were not "TERFs", or feminists of any kind.

merrymouse yes you are right one has to be very precise in what one says and different people may mean different things. There is evidence of genetic and hormonal differences in transgender people suggestion that they have biological elements different from what has been traditionally understood as exclusive male and female domains. This area is not fully understood in terms of its biology and, of course, not all transgender people share the same biological characteristics anyway - both of these muddy the waters even further. Having said that there does seem to be a biological basis for the claim that not everyone is uncontrovercially biologically male or female, and that some people may appear in some biological respects to Ben of one sex while also having biological characteristics of the other sex.

In addition there are people who identify with another gender without displaying any biological sexual characteristics of that gender or without being interested in finding a medical answer to whether they display any biological sexual characteristics of that gender. Such people will emphasize the element of choice in gender identification.

Then there is the issue of socially ascribed gender roles and people who do not conform to what we, as a society, think a person of that gender should dress like, be interested in, etc., e.g. effeminate men, tomboy girls. Transgender people may (or may not) challenge these stereotypes, e.g. a female to male transgender person who looks masculine but has retained sexual organs that have allowed him to become pregnant and breastfeed.

hey tumble welcome to the thread

bev

I completely agree with your post

Hear, hear, VestalVirgin

About the risks for the children of transmen.

It's from 2008 though so I don't know whether they have more information now.

Tumble, welcome to Mumsnet. Miranda Yardley drops in sometimes too.

BevGoldbergsSister, I understand that most women don't have a problem with sharing toilets with trans women however I also understand that plenty do have an issue with it. I don't view those that have an issue with it as trans phobic; I understand that lots of women may have genuine reasons for not wanting to share toilets with someone who is biologically male. Unlike the TRA's I understand that the world doesn't revolve around me and my needs.

On the changing rooms/toilets issue I think it's tough because on one hand I've had issues using men's facilities before. I have been physically assaulted in the mens toilets so am wary about using men's toilets however at the same time I'm also wary about using the ladies toilets because of issues I've already mentioned. What if there is a woman who has been raped or assaulted recently who would find me being there distressing? I don't want to put anyone through that.

As a result of these things I avoid public toilets all together and will only use them unless I literally cannot hole it in any longer which luckily doesn't happen very often. Think the last time I used public loos was about six months ago.

The gym I go to has unisex changing rooms with individual cubicles which I prefer. I wouldn't be comfortable using male changing rooms or female changing rooms, again all for reasons mentioned above.

Hole it in? I meant hold obviously.

Empress I think you have completely misunderstood my post which was about the history of medical ethics which explains medical attitudes today. I never said anything about the sexuality of transgender people nor do I think it is in any way defined by their being transgender. I mentioned historical medical abuse of gay, lesbian and straight women for their sexual preferences and how fear of repeating the same mistakes, I.e. reflecting cultural attitudes about sex and gender in medical decision making, makes doctors hesitant to refuse transgender requests for medical help. I also didn't say a word about Fish's particular situation or how medical risks should be weighed by et and her child.

Brave post Tumble, thank you for joining the discussion.

FWIW every time I have been assaulted it has always been a man who assaulted me.

And I know for a fact that one of the men who assaulted me has been arrested several times for beating up his girlfriend so I think it's safe to assume he is certainly not a feminist or a feminist ally or a TERF of any kind.

I believe trans women need to fight for our own safe spaces

I would wholeheartedly join you in that fight I am sorry that your right to a peaceful existence, and medical help, has been threatened by the utter madness that is going on at the moment

Shinynew - Call me cynical, but I don't see liberals and supporters of human rights to be particularly pro-women to begin with

I agree with you, YetAnother but - in the past - they were forced at least to pay lip service to women's rights. You wouldn't have seen the Greens, for example, decreeing that women were non-men, as they have now done, or an all-party group of female MPs pushing to allow men into all women's spaces. Trans has allowed all this, by confusing the gullible, lazy and - though I dislike the term - virtue-signallers.

The Trans trend has enabled the previously (fairly) covert misogyny of the Left/liberals while also providing a rallying point for all the men who openly objected to women's rights in the first place.

Just wanted to say Welcome Tumble . So nice to have a sensible trans voice on here as I think a lot of us are floundering at times in this debate.

There is evidence of genetic and hormonal differences in transgender people suggestion that they have biological elements different from what has been traditionally understood as exclusive male and female domains

No, there isn't. This is - and I use the term advisedly - absolute bollocks.

tumble

Thank you for coming on here, we do occasionally get transwomen and it's always very kind of you to post and I'm sorry you have been targeted.

I wondered whether or not you could answer a question? If there was a cure for gender dysphoria, which meant you could live again as a man without any kind of compromise to your health, well being or outlook, would you take it?

If it is too personal a question, I totally understand if you don't answer it.

What is the evidence for genetic or hormonal differences in transgender people?
Treatment of gay, lesbian and promiscuous people by the medical profession was at times awful. There is a qualitative difference though in being gay (or lesbian, or promiscuous) and being transgender. If society leaves you alone, a gay person can get on with life without intervention. The same cannot be said for someone who says they are the opposite gender. They require medical intervention to make their dream a reality.

The sad thing is is that right now we feel unable to actually campaign for our own safe spaces because we are scared of being labelled bigots, being accused of 'committing literal violence' against trans gendered people' (so committing violence against ourselves basically - htf does that even make sense!?) and being labelled trans phobic.

Just think about that for a second OP. We are terrified of trying to help ourselves and each other because we fear repercussions from TRA's. HTF does that make sense? We want to fight for our own changing rooms/crisis centres/sports teams/etc but we can't because of the backlash we would face (and have faced) from TRA's.

Making us scared to help each other and ourselves is far more trans phobic than anything that has ever been written on here IMO (not that I've actually seen anything trans phobic on here unless I missed it).

TRA's are the trans phobic ones. Not to mention homophobic and misogynist to boot.

"If there was a cure for gender dysphoria, which meant you could live again as a man without any kind of compromise to your health, well being or outlook, would you take it?"

Yes I would.

Gender dysphoria is a very real and painful thing to have to live with. That's why I think the whole gender identity thing is a load of bollocks. There is a huge difference between someone who has gender dysphoria and someone who just fancies being the opposite gender just for the sake of it.