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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

999 replies

ShutTheFuckUpBarbara · 26/02/2017 11:02

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic Sad

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

OP posts:
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TheWorldAccordingToToads · 27/02/2017 19:42

I've said this several times before but I'll say it again here; I think it's hilarious how people are so keen to point fingers at us and shout "trans phobic!" but they always fail to direct us to specific quotes/posts where this alleged trans phobia occurred.

I also find it hilarious that every time Fish who has a trans gendered child posts or a trans gendered person themselves post to say "nope no trans phobia here" and share their experience of how damaging the TRA agenda is all the people yelling "transphobia!" all seem to disappear. That's very telling imo.

Welcome Tumble and sorry the TRA's have given you such a shit time Flowers

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 27/02/2017 19:43

I have come to the conclusion that it's not trans phobia per se , more an anger against some very toxic trans activists . But keep reporting as some comments could be read that way - that's for sure

The kindness shown to some (brave !) trans posters and some parents with trans kids relieves me .

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 27/02/2017 19:45

Tbf to Tumble she never actually said she identified as a female, merely that she suffers from gender dysphoria. She's even said she finds the whole self identification thing bollocks.

Booboostwo · 27/02/2017 19:46

Prawn I am not confused, just summarizing complex ideas briefly. 'Gender identity' and 'gender' for short is a perfectly acceptable medical term for what you call sex. In social studies there is a sharper distinction between gender and sex, but as I said a while ago terminology is complex and confusing in this area.

Where sexual characteristics are indeterminate, determining sex is very much a medical process, I have described previously how it was done and how this has changed with our knowledge of genetics and endocrinology.

Intersex people, especially 46 XX and 46 XY individuals are often transgender in later life due to mistaken sex identifications at birth. As for other transgender people the evidence is very much in favor of a biological root, see for example

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm

The quote from the Swedish study doesn't really relate to what you say so I am not sure what to reply to it. Trans people continue to have MH problems at a higher rate than the general population after reassignment - OK how does that disprove the claim that they have MH issues before reassignment? You seem to be arguing against a position I never even mentioned using facts that have nothing to do with your claim so, in all good faith, I don't know what to reply to this.

PencilsInSpace · 27/02/2017 19:49

Couple of pages behind so this might have been said but booboo -

conforming to the function of man: there are two versions of this argument. The simplistic one sets whatever the speaker wants to promote as the function of the species thus prejudging the conclusion and making the argument circular e.g. the function of humans is to procreate, any sexual act that doesn't lead to procreation does not fulfill the function so is diseased.

If humans can be said to have a function then it is to procreate. It can't really be called a function though because there's no purpose in it. Humans don't have a function, we just are. And we are because every generation of our ancestors have procreated successfully right back to the beginnings of life.

A natural variation (like red hair) is something that can be passed on without affecting the viability or reproductive capacity of the organism (at least not to the extent that its competitors outbreed it).

Intersex people are usually infertile. They can't pass their condition on as a natural variation. Intersex conditions are not natural variations they are developmental disorders which affect reproductive capacity.

BTW, what is simplistic is thinking that sexual acts have only a reproductive function. We're social apes. Sex is for babies but also for pair and group bonding, among other social functions.

Intersex people are not in any way clearly harmed by being intersex

This isn't true. Infertility is very distressing for lots of people. Additionally, some intersex conditions have wider effects. Klinefelter syndrome, for example, can cause poor muscle tone, difficulties with coordination, language and literacy and possibly decreased life expectancy.

That's not even touching on the social and psychological issues of trying to navigate an extremely gendered world with an indefinitely sexed body.

Intersex and trans are two totally different things. Trans people have totally normal male or female bodies before they take hormones or have surgery.

I hate the way intersex people's experiences are being co-opted by the trans debate. I was thinking earlier though, all the rights trans people are demanding - self-identification, access to the sex segregated spaces they feel are most appropriate, changed documentation and records ... On the whole I have no problem with these rights for intersex people*. They are the group who have been 'assigned at birth', they are the group who do actually need to 'identify' as something, because their sex is not obvious or unambiguous.

*Not sure how I'd feel about an intersex person who had apparently lived comfortably as male their whole life suddenly identifying as female.

You mentioned schizophrenia and bipolar in an earlier post too and questioned whether these might just be normal human variations. No. They are distressing psychological conditions which severely affect a person's ability to lead a normal life if left untreated.

Fairenuff · 27/02/2017 19:50

Yes World, I agree, I just couldn't think of a way to phrase it. Not male?

But I suppose what I'm asking is what does gender dysphoria feel like. What, specifically, feels 'wrong', or 'missing' or 'out of place. Is it clothes, for example, or other so called feminine trappings?

BevGoldbergsSister · 27/02/2017 19:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PencilsInSpace · 27/02/2017 19:53

And while I'm on a roll ...

Being a woman with fertility issues is a female experience.
PCOS is a female experience.
Being a woman with excessive body hair is a female experience.
Being a butch woman is a female experience.
Menopause is a female experience.
Being a post-menopausal woman is a female experience.

Booboostwo · 27/02/2017 19:53

Vestal If you accept that there are females (p) and males (not p) and intersex (neither p nor not p), you have accepted three categories. That is just logic.

Booboostwo · 27/02/2017 19:58

Pencils the function of humans is to reason not to procreate. The argument is lengthy and comes from Aristotle. It permeates western philosophy creating a ratiocentric view of the universe which has been challenged from other traditions.

BevGoldbergsSister · 27/02/2017 19:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

shinynewusername · 27/02/2017 19:58

Boo I find it hard to take your claim to understand the science of sex seriously when the "evidence" you post is a summary of a press release of a review article - by a hospital touting for business. It is basically advertising PR.

PencilsInSpace · 27/02/2017 20:01

TumbleTrans Flowers I will fight with you for the safe spaces you need. It doesn't surprise me at all, sadly, how the TRA's have treated you. I've read so many awful accounts. Are there any trans-led campaigns we can support on this?

Lweji · 27/02/2017 20:01

intersex (neither p nor not p)

There isn't one form of intersex.
You get hormonal male-looking chromosomal females, female-looking chromosomal males, true intersex, X0 females, XXY males.

medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

Should it be one category, or several?

BevGoldbergsSister · 27/02/2017 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/02/2017 20:04

Spot on, Vestal. Transactivists do not want a brain scan that reliably diagnoses gender dysphoria as opposed to, say, autogynephilia. Because were such a scan to exist it might reveal that these activists didn't qualify, and then the shit would hit the fan.

Here are some links from CNBC and International Business Times that detail what a huge - and growing - market there now is for transgender porn. This post would be deleted if I mention the names of the genres involved, as they sound pretty transphobic to me. I can't imagine the audience for such material suffers from dysphoria.

Hello, Tumble, I really appreciate you joining the debate. Sorry you've had such a hard time.

merrymouse · 27/02/2017 20:06

'Gender identity' and 'gender' for short is a perfectly acceptable medical term for what you call sex.

No. Even if you want to confuse the terms gender and sex, there is no such thing as an objective, biological concept of sex or gender identity that is distinct from physical sexual characteristics,

NiceMoustache · 27/02/2017 20:08

Well said Bev

malificent7 · 27/02/2017 20:10

I think lots of people are overthinking it tbh. I think gender is a fluid concept.

VestalVirgin · 27/02/2017 20:10

Vestal If you accept that there are females (p) and males (not p) and intersex (neither p nor not p), you have accepted three categories. That is just logic.

Nope. Intersex is a failure of the body to develop a female or male sex.
There are two sexes, and, as the name says intersex is between these two, it is not something entirely different.

A true third sex would be necessary for sexual reproduction, (and as you are well aware, a woman and a man can have children just fine without an intersex person being involved) or, at the very least, have some unique way of reproduction. Like parthenogenesis.

This is not the case.

In a genderless society, the fact that some people have not fully developed the characteristics of one sex or the other would not be a big deal. In the heavily gendered society we live in, the pronoun "it" is insulting, and there is not really a place for intersex people. And yes, that is a problem.
I still don't think it would help them much if we were to pretend that this is actually a third sex. Considering the variety of intersex conditions, we would have to invent a number of new sexes, not only a third one. It would be all very complicated.

And it has nothing at all to do with trans.

Datun · 27/02/2017 20:11

Gender identity' and 'gender' for short is a perfectly acceptable medical term for what you call sex.

It really isn't. And that's where the confusion lies. Gender is how you present yourself on a scale from masculine to feminine.

Sex is male, female, man or woman.

One is determined by chromosomes, the other is determined by culture.

shinynewusername · 27/02/2017 20:12

The function of humans is to reason not to procreate. The argument is lengthy and comes from Aristotle. It permeates western philosophy creating a ratiocentric view of the universe which has been challenged from other traditions

Fuck knows what that has got to do with the binary nature of biological sex. Aristotle thought that children could inherit the characteristics of any man their mother had slept with, so I don't think he can be considered a cutting edge authority on biology Wink

Bringing intersex into debates on transgenderism is a deliberate attempt to distract and gas-light women from saying what we know to be true: we are biologically different from men, including men who identify as women. And many intersex posters both on MN and elsewhere on social media have repeatedly asked TAs to stop doing it. But of course, TAs and their apologists don't, because they care about no one but themselves.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 27/02/2017 20:17

I think lots of people are overthinking it tbh. I think gender is a fluid concept.

Gender seems to be more or less what anyone wants it to be. What it isn't is biological sex.

merrymouse · 27/02/2017 20:19

I think lots of people are overthinking it tbh. I think gender is a fluid concept

No, gender is a restrictive concept that is completely unnecessary.

BevGoldbergsSister · 27/02/2017 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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