To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Nothing wrong with activists per se. The ones who want to do things that are a recipe for unsafety probably do not belong on the "ordinary" side.

You really don't have a clue, do you? And yet every time you weigh in to mansplain women's rights to women. Why is that?

venus I don't even read his posts.

I have a sinking feeling that I know what DD2's show and tell is going to be this morning...

I find the whole idea of a 'lady brain' so incredibly offensive that I can scarcely put it into words. It was the idea of a 'lady brain' that was used for centuries, millenia even, to keep women in their place. The concept of a 'lady brain' was what meant that women weren't allowed to study medicine, because it would be 'too much for them', weren't allowed to vote because they couldn't be trusted to understand the issues and so many other examples. The fact that this happened to coincide nicely with keeping women in their place is no coincidence. And that is exactly what is happening again, right now, in a different disguise.

By which of course I don't mean that trans activists are going to try to prevent women studying at university (although they certainly will damage attempts to get women into traditionally male courses if anyone who says they are female is eligible to count towards the statistics) or voting, just that they are intent on ensuring that women's needs and rights are of less importance as a whole.

That is not analagous. Anorexics believe their physical body to possess physical properties it objectively verifiably does not possess

So exactly analogous then. Transwomen believe their physical body posesses qualities it objectively doesn't possess as well.

"Personally I am disturbed by the homophobia of encouraging non-gender conforming 'butch' women to believe that they are actually men or 'effeminate' boys to believe that they are women. I think it is deeply homophobic to suggest that they are in the wrong body and should have surgery or take hormones that will make them infertile. But that doesn't mean that I don't have great sympathy for the gender dysphoria they are experiencing."

Purposely sabotaging the fertility of an oppressed group has a name...

I find it really, really striking how on this thread some posters appear, scream 'TRANSPHOBES!' and either run away, or only post a few times more and vanish, never to respond to the perfectly reasonable questions that are asked of them. How do you define a woman? Can you give us a reference for those stats? How is a biological fact hate speech?

I know that I am not a transphobe. I also know that I am not unreasonable for having my doubts about the trans ideology, for being concerned that teens can easily get swept up in a trend, and for being deeply worried about the possibility that self-asserted gender identity will be all it takes for female spaces to be gone for good. These female spaces exist for very good reasons, but if we worry about their potential loss, we're transphobes.

What the fuck is going on?

That is not analagous. Anorexics believe their physical body to possess physical properties it objectively verifiably does not possess.

Oh JAPAB do give over. Obviously that statement you made there is EXACTLY analogous - a person with a male body is 'objectively and verifiably' not a female. You must be having a laugh!

Whilst I broadly agree with what you are saying I don't think this is homophobia. You can be a butch woman, or an effeminate man, and be heterosexual. The real problem is that this is not recognised.

DH response was interesting. He is a kind, leftish person but a lawyer so precise. He would not countenance that this boy was a girl. No way. Also as a man he is not conditioned to "be nice" and accepting of others at the expense of himself.

When I explained about the concerns raised on this thread and how it may become law that we all have to pretend that a boy saying he is a girl is a girl he was absolutely horrified and didn't believe me.

SallyInSweden And yet, it is the views of those activists which the pro-Trans posters fully agree with.

Then we can agree that they are wrong. Just as we can disagree with the Muslims who go beyond "ordinary" and those who support those particular Muslims.

venusinscorpio, I wasn't explaining anyone's rights to anyone, just answering a question put. But never let a chance for a strawman slip by. Or a chance to post a message simply to just say that someone is wrong :)

So exactly analogous then. Transwomen believe their physical body posesses qualities it objectively doesn't possess as well.

Could you give an example? Chromosome? Reproductive parts? Whether or not it has mammary glands? I think the results of any test of these physical properties would not contradict what the transperson believes they will be. Unlike the anorexia patient who thinks they have extra fat cells than what they actually have.

I find the correlation with the rise of the alt Right deeply disturbing. They are no longer allowed to try to cure homosexuality but they can try and cure gender non conforming people. With the goal of nice male/female couples, and the erasing of gay men and lesbians.....

Whilst I broadly agree with what you are saying I don't think this is homophobia. You can be a butch woman, or an effeminate man, and be heterosexual.

That's true of course. But the evidence is that most people who think of themselves as trans as teenagers will - if not given hormones/surgery - eventually identify as gay. And a lot of the parents pushing pre-teens to identify as trans seem to be motivated by a fear of their boys, in particular, displaying behaviours that might indicate (to those parents' minds) that they are gay. They would rather have a trans girl than a gay boy

So I do think homophobia and the self-loathing of young gay people conditioned by a lifetime of homophobia are important factors in the trans trend. Instead of fighting for the rights of children to display non-gender conforming behaviours, transactivists are doing the precise opposite: encouraging the belief that non-GC behaviour = proof you are in the 'wrong' body. No wonder these poor kids are confused.

The philosophy of biology is quite a complicated area and deciding which conditions should be medicalised and in exactly what way, e.g. physiological or psychological,

I think what boo is saying is that with complex biological systems (like people) where there is a lot of natural vaiation it can be hard to decide what is the norm, and outside of that what is abnormal, and also what is just variation.

So, for example, being heterosexual is the norm because most people are. In past times being homosexual was considered abnormal and was therefore something that required correction. There were arguments about whether homosexuality was a physical condition (say caused by an imbalance in hormones, or faulty genes) or caused by incorrect socialisation (eg smothering mothers, absent fathers) and therefore treatable by psychotherapy.

These days (in the UK at last) we recognise homosexuality as a normal variant of sexuality and not something that requires treatment.

Similar arguments have been had over other conditions eg autism, being left handed, and are still being had over things like bipolar and schizophrenia - and now transgenderism.

Could you give an example? Chromosome? Reproductive parts? Whether or not it has mammary glands? I think the results of any test of these physical properties would not contradict what the transperson believes they will be

They all will, if they believe themselves to be a woman. This person believes themselves to be a woman, against every biological and physical reality, in what way are they any different to an anorexic who thinks they are fat?
This person says that not acknowledge them as female is misogynistic and anti-feminist. Talk about using your privilege to take from women!

Shiny good point. I guess it's both then - homophobia and an overwhelming need to reinforce gender conformity (back in your box everyone).

I find the correlation with the rise of the alt Right deeply disturbing.

The alt-right have used transgender issues as one of their points of divergence from the mainstream political correctness. Rejecting transactivist claims is one of their ways of positioning themselves as on the side of realism and rationality against feelings and ideology. They reject the idea of transitioning and express concerns almost identical in terms and wording to the issues raised in this thread concerning traditionally female spaces such as toilets, changing rooms and sporting events.

While recognising the legitimacy of the gender-critical and women's rights concerns expressed on this thread, it is interesting to see how this issue is placing traditional feminism on the side of the alt-right and against the socially liberal strands of modern youth culture.

I think what boo is saying is that with complex biological systems (like people) where there is a lot of natural vaiation it can be hard to decide what is the norm, and outside of that what is abnormal, and also what is just variation

But that is simply not true of biological sex. There is no natural variation, other than rare genetic mutations that cannot be passed on to children because the people affected are infertile.

99.8% of humans are XX or XY. About a further 0.02% of people have hormone abnormalities that mean their genitalia don't match their chromosomes. Again, these are genetic abnormalities and the people affected are infertile.

So 99.7% of humans are XX or XY with the hormones & genitals to match.

If someone wants to live as a different gender then why not?

Why is it not feminist to want to be 'ultra feminine' anyway? Surely femininity is open to translation.

Its a bit like mums who raise their kids to be gender neutral. Pc gone mad... and i regard myself as feminist. Each to their own.

Plenty of women prefer to identify as man too.

"Anorexics believe their physical body to possess physical properties it objectively verifiably does not possess."

It's hilarious that you can't see that is exactly what trans do.

A man with XY chromosomes in every cell and male genitals dangling between his legs believing he is female is very clearly a similar case to anorexia of erroneous perception about his own physical body and its physical characteristics which he objectively verifiably does not possess.

What im saying is.... if a man or woman wants to wear a pink flouncy frou frou dress and heels and change body parts then why the big deal?