To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

I dont think that protecting a battered woman (and protecting their safe space) and protecting a suicidal and desperate trans person should be mutually exclusive

I don't think anyone has said they are. But if transwomen are at risk of domestic violence and need shelter then they need a shelter for transwomen. They can campaign and fundraise for this in the same way that women have to. If men need a shelter from domestic violence then they can fundraise and campaign for this in the same way as women have had to. It's not unreasonable or complicated. In fact you'd think it would be the ideal solution because other transwomen would be exactly the people who could best understand and support them. Women have no more idea what it feels like to be a transwomen than transwomen know what it feels like to be a woman.

shouting As I read somewhere on t'internet, 'A broken clock is still right twice a day'.

And a gently voiced opinion of, 'I don't know what the solution is' whilst telling others not to have defined ideas, is no good to anyone.

Also, all this talk of sensitivity is missing the fact that for much of the transwomen community there is no discussion or negotiation to be had - they want full access to women's spaces from the moment they 'feel a woman'. They don't want to be sensitively told that there is any sort of barrier to access (eg. Medical transition started as opposed to just adopting clothes for example) for any reason (vulnerable women or children needing protection).

Prawn calling intersex a developmental disorder is quite a loaded judgement.

Booboo please could you explain this a bit more.

Strongerandleaner ^A feature of anoxia nervosa is the belief by the sufferer that s/he is fat despite physical evidence to the contrary.
So is it "hate speech" to not play along? Is it "phobic" to not recommned a weight loss diet?^

That is not analagous. Anorexics believe their physical body to possess physical properties it objectively verifiably does not possess.

You can argue the point as to whether expressing a particular opinion or ideology is "hate speech", but I do not see how stating objective facts (in non-pejorative terms) could be.

As a long time lurker I would like to thank all those women on MN who have eloquently and patiently explained those comcerns associated with "gender self identification" . Specifically the negative impact on women and girls.
I have learned so much. Although I confess I'm quite miserable about the redefining of "female" which seems to squash actual females.
Not so much for myself, as I am in my forties so have already become invisible but for my daughters, who are just about to start primary school.

It doesn't take many MTT people in sport to have a huge affect. A mediocre man can knock an exceptional woman into a cocked hat. If you are a cyclist and race with 200 women and one MTT it is no comfort that there is only a tiny percentage of MTT in the race when they come sweeping past you.

If children girls are not harmed then what about all the evidence that, actually, girls some people are harmed by being in an environment where their group is dominated and talked over. Sexual assault in schools is widespread and just because notallboys commit it, all girls are impacted by it. Gender neutral spaces become male dominated spaces.

Harold Shipman murdered hundreds of patients, but this doesn't tell us anything about doctors nor do we need to deal with the doctor/murderer issue

One of the things that came out of the Shipman inquiry was that he could have been stopped years if not decades earlier if the entirely reasonable concerns that people had about him had been acted on. They weren't because he was a 'nice man' and a doctor to boot. There was a culture that you couldn't speak out about a respected professional and that, even if you did, the PCT would not be able to do anything. The lesson of the Shipman inquiry are not 'Hardly any doctors are mass murderers so it's all good' but 'Stop allowing conformity and obedience, not wanting to rock the boat and niceness stop you from standing up and speaking out when things are clearly wrong'.

Stating a biological fact is not hate speech.

Hate speech is things like wearing a pin calling for the death of women and violence towards the gender critical. These pins are for sale on Etsy, who refuse to remove them from sale despite many complaints.

SallyInSweden Many pro-Trans people have tried to make a distinction between "ordinary" Trans people and Transactivists. None of those posters have been willing to be drawn on their own limit for the difference between those two groups.

Nothing wrong with activists per se. The ones who want to do things that are a recipe for unsafety probably do not belong on the "ordinary" side. And I mean things that present a clear and present risk, such as putting someone with a vagina in a male prison. As opposed to someone making slippery slope type arguments which remind me me a bit of discussions I was reading ten years ago involving people who were insisting that absolutely no concessions must be made to Muslim rights no matter how relatively mild. Allow a Muslim to not handle pork in their job today, and FGM will be legalised tomorrow, or some sort of slippery slope type thing.

JAPAB
..."I do not see how stating objective facts could be [defined as hate speech]"
oh, must have misunderstood, I thought that was the point stronger was making

Agree with all the PPs saying that our concerns are about the Transactivist movement, not individuals who believe themselves to be Trans.

Personally I am disturbed by the homophobia of encouraging non-gender conforming 'butch' women to believe that they are actually men or 'effeminate' boys to believe that they are women. I think it is deeply homophobic to suggest that they are in the wrong body and should have surgery or take hormones that will make them infertile. But that doesn't mean that I don't have great sympathy for the gender dysphoria they are experiencing.

I am also deeply concerned about the harm to girls being forced to share spaces with biological men, however those men identify, not because I think that transwomen are a particular threat but because the evidence of my own eyes, my lifetime as a woman and opening the paper/internet every day reminds me of how often men are violent and sexually aggressive towards women.

Imagine reproduction in humans was asexual but due to the gene make up 50% were larger, stronger and much more violent. Historically they had presented a huge risk to the other group and many were still injured and killed daily. The "at risk" group campaigned for, and got a few safe places designated just for them. Some of the excluded group self identified as "gentle", and felt this was deeply unfair so asked to be let in. The at risk group talked it over and agreed some indeed were gentle, they knew of many themselves. The problem was how could they tell What if some identified as gentle just to get in? After much discussion and remembering how long it had taken to get these rights, they agreed that no one from the other group should be allowed in. Was this a valid decision based on the very real risks of violence against them, or were they just being ignorant unreasonable judgemental bigots?

That is not analagous. Anorexics believe their physical body to possess physical properties it objectively verifiably does not possess

But a transwoman is objectively and verifiably biologically male. Not an adult human female, therefore not a woman.

"I do not see how stating objective facts could be [defined as hate speech]"
oh, must have misunderstood, I thought that was the point stronger was making

They were using an example of telling someone an objective fact to demonstrate that it is not hate speech to assert an opinion/ideology. Apples and oranges.

I just want to add my "thank you" to those on MN who regularly explain trans issues and how this affects females. Like a lot of posters, I previously would have found threads like this bigoted. I remember the first time I read one and it made absolute sense, and I actually felt shameful that I now held a view that didn't "fit" with my liberal, leftist, feminist views and aligned me with the conservative right. It felt like the liberal media and anyone seen as "progressive" was in support of welcoming anyone as a woman and anyone expressing an alternative view was hounded, derided, no-platformed and told they were going to be "on the wrong side of history".

As someone who had always been a vocal supporter of LGB rights I felt like to be critical of the belief that you can change sex was wrong, because LGBT had been considered something of a "group" for so long. I just hope that more prominent people and mainstream media will be critical of the current rhetoric so that it is seen as a valid viewpoint for liberals and will not be automatically dismissed.

The philosophy of biology is quite a complicated area and deciding which conditions should be medicalised and in exactly what way, e.g. physiological or psychological,

What

I am Not the cleverest person but that sounds like bollocks to me

Really honestly happy for boo to come back and explain as i have more than likely misunderstood

I think the issue is that being intersex could be regarded as a developmental disorder or just another variant like having red hair.

Either way, being intersex has nothing to do with 'being born into the wrong body'.

Interesting debate on the abstract - I am getting to live the reality!

I have had to tell my DDs (10 and 8) that even though x looks like(/is?) a boy we have to pretend he's a girl. "But hes not mummy he's a boy" "he's got nail varnish" says DD2 "he's a boy" says DD1. She has moved bedrooms.

DH is furious that his one proviso no boys rule has been ignored. He does not accept that this student is a girl because, well, he isn't. He is in a huff that we have been put in this position. I don't feel I can enforce his rule now because its too mean to ask this perfectly pleasant guy to leave. The language school are freaked as they now have a boy / girl sharing which is against the rules. So I am also in breach of rules presumably?

Not really sure this has been thought through properly as to how will work in real life.

@KERALA 1 how does the girl who is sharing the room with them feel?

Not really sure this has been thought through properly as to how will work in real life.

No, it hasn't.

There is no such thing as being 'born in the wrong body'. You can't have a female brain in a male body. It's scientifically untenable.

What you can have is gender dysphoria. A deeply distressing condition that will occupy your every waking moment.

But I fail to see why or how that can lead to demands of accessing women's sports, scholarships, business loans, rape refugees, locker rooms etc.

There are two women on here who both have children who are trans. One has had her child post on here who who agrees that they are the sex they were born, are not interested in any of the demands above and fully support the views of the women who are trans-critical.

The other has said that the trans-activists' campaign has actively hurt her child. She can no longer access mental health treatment and has had any support withdrawn as soon as she decided she didn't want to put her child on hormones. She has said that making this a political issue, rather than a medical one has forced her child into a position they don't want to be in and find distressing.

Being transgender used to mean that you had gender dysphoria. You wanted to present as the opposite sex as it alleviated your symptoms. You didn't want to be fired from your job for doing so. Most women, certainly feminists, are fine with that. It would only be men who might have a problem, as it is threatening to their masculinity (they same way they use gay as an insult).

So how has it gone from that to demanding all female rights are accrued to people born men, access to women's spaces everywhere, scholarships, etc, demands that we actually redefine the term woman, demands that we call breasts, chests, talking about women's issues being exclusionary and damaging, making a pronoun mistake as being a hate crime and leading to violence, being blamed for the trans sex workers who are killed by their johns, ignore biology...the list goes on.

Areeing that people with gender dysphoria should not be discriminated against for wearing clothes or presenting in a way that helps them has lead to a complete redefinition of language and a climate of even of questioning, what has become a hugely political ideology, is deemed hateful and shut down.

Kerala ... I don't know what to say, but this young man should not be sharing with girls and your DDs should not be told that the nekkid emporer is wearing clothes. I think you should ask the language school to do something. I'm confused re why he is there unexpectedly. Did he 'lie' and say he was a female or was someone not checking their forms properly? Why should his feelings come before anyone else's? Sad thing is there might be households where it would be more appropriate for him to board ...

They are friends. Honestly I don't know what to think.

The students are both perfectly happy as all our confusion is in private (albeit kicking DD2 under the table).