To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Men are responsible for the vast majority of serious violence against transwomen.

So why is it that transwomen reserve almost all their criticism for women, not men ?
Why do transactivists make almost all their threats of murder and rape against women, not men ?

Stating biological fact is not committing violence, is not "murdering" transwomen
It is men (afaik no women yet) who have murdered transwomen - and who also murder 100 x as many women
It is men whose toilets and prisons are so dangerous that transwomen feel afraid to go in.

So where is the criticism of violent men by transwomen and their supporters ?

Transwomen, as biological males, retain male crime patterns and frequency
They remain usually taller and much stronger than women, even fully transitioned

Most transwomen are not dangerous; neither are most other biological males
However, the crime statistics mean it is reasonable that most women feel vulnerable to the minority of violent males.

So we want to retain the separate toilets, refuges, hospital wards, prisons that helped lessen the danger
Our feminist sisters of past generations fought for these to help women become safer.
Feminists in developing countries like India are campaigning to build separate toilets to reduce the number of rapes and murders of women there, so why is the West moving backwards in womens' rights ?

The obvious compromise, so that both women and transwomen can feel safe, is to keep the facilities sex-segregated but also build separate toilets, refuges, prison wings for those who have transitioned. Since pp keep saying such facilities should be unisex, then one facility for all transitioned people should be fine.

Also for sports, keep these sex-segregated but add separate categories for transwomen and transmen, so that the competitions are fair: sport is very dependent on biology / physiology.

"Venus, we're gonna need a load of toilets..."

No we won't. Remember? We only need two. A men's toilet. And a "women's toilet" which has become the "toilet that absolutely everyone is allowed into."

B) transwomen are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple. There is no 'vague feeling' about it.'

Women are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple. There is no 'vague feeling' about it.'

An XY chromosome indicates male. HTH.

I am glad you posted OP and YANBU, some MN threads leave me feeling very uneasy as well.

My feelings about all transgender people is that it must be very difficult to not feel comfortable in your body, to be rejected by family for who you are, to be ridiculed by society and to struggle through life because of other people's preconceptions. I think it is as limiting to say to someone that they are not a woman because they look like a man, as it is to say to a woman that they are not female enough because they behave in socially defined 'male' ways. I think our biology is quiTe complicated and DNA, hormones and sexual characteristics may offer a more complex picture than the strict male/female.

Practically some of the questions posed are more significant than others. There should just be public toilets with cubicles for privacy for anyone to use. The number of trans people in sports must be miniscule, perhaps the attention they attract is not merited? I dislike sex seggregated activities for children anyway and children are not harmed by sharing spaces with those who are different from them, they are harmed by actions so let's hold those who act badly responsible for their actions rather than dishing out generalized blame to everyone who looks a particular way for their claimed potential to be harmful.

Spaces for abused women are the most difficult cases but perhaps this issue could be dealt with discussion, empathy and sesnsitivity on behalf of those who which to enter such spaces as their workplace for example.

Booboo You clearly missed the case of the fell-running transwoman Lauren Jeska who tried to kill (by multiple stabbing) the official who launched an investigation into whether her status as a transwoman gave her an unfair advantage in the multiple titles she won.

And Fallon Fox dominating mixed martial arts. There only needs to be a few, possibly just one transwoman, in any sport at any time for the effects to be felt. I don't think you can understand the dedication and sacrifice required for success in sports to so casually dismiss the devastation caused when you are up against an unassailable opponent. When nothing you do can ever be good enough.

Booboo, reproductive biology really isn't that vague. There's male, female, and a group of developmental disorders called intersex. There is no third sex. Transwomen are not intersex. A lot of them are fathers.

I do not believe that men are women. Biology is not bigotry.

Girls already have lower expectations by the age of 6, let's be really careful about the messages that we are sending them.

I care about women and girls and I want them to be safe, keep their dignity and to keep their right to compete with their own sex.

I am also sick of crimes committed by males being reported as being committed by women. How will we ever tackle male violence if we cannot name the problem.

I think if anyone sits down and does a little bit of critical thinking they will realise that this has huge implications for women and girls.

Would they allow awards for black people go to someone with blackface on? If not, why not, there is NO difference.

I think it is as limiting to say to someone that they are not a woman because they look like a man, as it is to say to a woman that they are not female enough because they behave in socially defined 'male' ways.

Practically, that isn't true though.

If I'm a 5'4 human adult with a womb, I can wear what I want, love who I want and behave how I want within the law, but I can't be the fastest runner in the world and I can't produce sperm.

There may be other people with characteristics of both sexes, but that still doesn't mean I can produce sperm.

If I go to the doctor, the doctor needs to identify my sex so that they can treat me correctly. They can be as polite as possible, but fundamentally, I have to be treated as a woman.

Currently there are many societal and cultural expectations that people attach to the idea of being male and female, and they are very damaging and restrictive. Men cannot wear dresses and make up without comment. 'Gay' is still used as an insult to describe a man who acts in a way that is perceived as feminine. Children's clothes and toys are hugely gendered. We don't live in a society where it is acceptable for men to look anything other than masculine. Hopefully that will all change. It may even be that at some point in the distant future sperm and ova are irrelevant and we are all spliced together out of various bits of DNA.

However, at the moment, biological sex is inescapable and has consequences and that needs to be recognised.

I've been reading this thread with interest and don't know enough about it to come down one way or the other, although I do understand the anger toward the word cis and needing to protect safe spaces.

However I thought this from a pp was interesting though and challenged what I was thinking:

Most gay men are not pedophiles. To imply that they are is homophobia.
Most Muslims are not terrorists. To imply that they are is Islamophobia.
Most transwomen are not rapists or extremists, nor are they remotely interested in telling other women how to live their lives. To imply that they are is transphobia.

By this logic, it seems wrong to have a blanket ban on trans-men from public female-only spaces doesn't it? Or can someone explain an alternate view?

It's possible to respect trans people without thinking that pre-op trans women (who are men) should have access to women only spaces.

I think it must be awful to go through a situation feeling like body/brain doesn't line up (or hwiever else trans people describe it). I think trans hatred is awful and I'm more than happy to use whatever pronouns somebody wants and support their right to dress how they want etc. I think that having access to single cubicle gender neutral toilets would be a good way forward.
My issue is that for some within the trans lobby theu aren't happy with being given an alternative to 'mens' spaces, they specifically want womens spaces. And for some they claim discrimination when lesbians don't want to date a trans woman (biological men). Same for sports, just feeling female shouldnt be enough to compete in womens teams, but thats what some parts of the trans lobby want.

The vast majority if trans people seem to be reasonable individuals but there's a loud trans activist group who seem to want to put biological women down (and dont see how much of this is their male privilege).

charles I don't really think one case tells us anything other than this is how one, aberrant, person behaved. Harold Shipman murdered hundreds of patients, but this doesn't tell us anything about doctors nor do we need to deal with the doctor/murderer issue.

Prawn calling intersex a developmental disorder is quite a loaded judgement. The philosophy of biology is quite a complicated area and deciding which conditions should be medicalised and in exactly what way, e.g. physiological or psychological, is very demanding. Intersex raises exactly the most demanding questions in the area, not only because we do not fully understand how intersex occurs. For what it's worth I am an amateur sports person in a sport where amateurs compete next to professionals.

Booboo you write about these issues in a very reasonable way, unfortunately the people you would need to engage with (the transactivists, rather than individual transperson at your work) are not reasonable at all and will not act with sensitivity and empathy when it comes to things like women's refuges.

CaptainWarbeck You missed the obvious one. Most men are not rapists but they are all banned from female spaces.

Captain,

Most gay men are not pedophiles. To imply that they are is homophobia But we will still request disclosure checks before they work with children, to protect the children.
Most Muslims are not terrorists. To imply that they are is Islamophobia But we will still subject them to security checks at airports.
Most transwomen are not rapists or extremists, nor are they remotely interested in telling other women how to live their lives. To imply that they are is transphobia But we can still protect ourselves by keeping safe spaces for women only.

Booboo While I did detail Jeska's appalling behaviour, my main point was that this was a case of a transwoman with great sporting success, arguably unmerited. The effect on the other athletes is major, not the minor concern you dismiss it as.

By this logic, it seems wrong to have a blanket ban on trans-men from public female-only spaces doesn't it? Or can someone explain an alternate view?

Generally, women's desire for female only spaces has nothing to do with the trans community.

The point is not that trans men are pedophiles, but that women, being physically smaller and weaker and capable of being raped, need spaces without people who are physically men.

You could argue women are no safer in female only toilets than they would be anywhere else. However, the logical conclusion to that is that all toilets should be unisex - it would allow for far more efficient use of space.

However, if you are going to argue that all toilets should be unisex, you should atleast listen to the reasons of the many women who want women only spaces and who are currently being excluded from debate.

"Most transwomen are not rapists or extremists... To imply that they are is transphobia. By this logic, it seems wrong to have a blanket ban on trans-men transwomen from public female-only spaces doesn't it?"

Nothing to do with assuming they are rapists.

Most men are not rapists, either, but they are excluded from female-only spaces because they are not female. Transwomen are also not female, so should not be in female-only spaces.

Intersex conditions are a developmental disorder, no ifs or buts. It's not a question of opinion or judgement. That doesn't mean medical intervention is necessary, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that there was a problem with development somewhere along the line.

"Most Muslims are not terrorists. To imply that they are is Islamophobia But we will still subject them to security checks at airports."

Very true. I would recommend anyone who doubt this to travel with a friend from a Muslim country, even if they are not Muslim. Quite the eye-opener.

My problem with allowing access to women's space isn't because I think trans women are likely to be a threat to women or children - it's because allowing trans women access gives access to any male bodied person who is prepared to claim that they are a trans woman.
Most trans women aren't rapists or extremists - but allowing them access to previously women only spaces gives an easy way in for ( not trans) men who are.

"allowing trans women access gives access to any male bodied person who is prepared to claim that they are a trans woman."

Yes, and also because saying "Any man who "feels like" a woman is a woman" is the end of girls-only schools, women's sports, women's prisons, girls' dormitories, and meaningful statistics in general on differences between men and women (medical, criminal, etc).

There is a reason why women's sport is separate from men's. And there is a reason why female-only spaces exist. This segregation is not arbitrary or "mores"-based.

BOoboo - I agree with you . But there are some very strong opinions on this topics- so even a very gently voiced opinion will get some very vociferous views thrown back

I dont think that protecting a battered woman (and protecting their safe space) and protecting a suicidal and desperate trans person should be mutually exclusive

Did I see that Trump is also down on trans ? Oh the bitter bitter irony

98% of sexual assaults are committed by men. Self identification allows anyone who says they are a woman to enter a woman's space. Sexual assault is common, not uncommon. sexual harassment is common not uncommon.

You may be comfortable running the risk, you may be comfortable letting your daughters run the risk, I am not comfortable opening up female spaces to anyone who feels female.

The whole concept is outrageously sexist, outdated and it throws women under the bus, as bloody usual.

I have no beef with trans people but I will not be forced to enter their cognitive dissonance and I will do all I can to stand up for women's hard won rights.

In other countries women do not leave the house because they have no access to sex segregated toilets. How many women and girls will stay at home or limit their journeys?

Lets tackle male violence, no one ever seems to suggest that, bar feminists.

Did I see that Trump is also down on trans ? Oh the bitter bitter irony

You know what Trump is 'down on'?

Following accepted practice (releasing tax returns, divesting from his businesses) when there isn't a law to force him to behave in a particular way. Laws matter. If legislation allows people to access women's services on the basis of identity, there is no longer any objective definition of who can access women's services.

I dont think that protecting a battered woman (and protecting their safe space) and protecting a suicidal and desperate trans person should be mutually exclusive

No, they aren't mutually exclusive, because it should be possible to provide dedicated for both. However, they do not need the same service.

I think that trans women are somewhat victims of their original gender (male ) - so for every depressed trans person who has major MH issues - you will get thrown back a violent male prisoner that decides he was female , a violent athlete etc

Yes it's true that men commit the vast majority of violent crime - but it also sadly means that many genuine trans won't get even one iota
Of comPassion due to the fact they were born with a penis

It's sad and complex