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Original poster

To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

999 replies

ShutTheFuckUpBarbara · 26/02/2017 11:02

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic Sad

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

OP posts:
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wictional · 26/02/2017 22:43

Wow there are some childish people in here. You can lead a horse to water I guess.

I'll go back to basics for you.

A transwoman is a person who was born into a male body. This felt innately wrong, and they transitioned using hormone treatment (or not, seeing as that is quite expensive) and began living as a female. This means that they can live life without wanting to scratch their skin off, without feeling like their very existence is wrong. Perhaps their depression is lessened, perhaps they feel like an actual human being. They are women.

Now then, if you say to that woman that she is a man, this is misgendering, which is an act of violence under the WHO definition (psychological). It is like bullying but on a much deeper scale.

I'm sure that one persons words have not led to thousands of deaths (unless you're say, Adolf Hitler, whose dreadful rhetoric led to many LGBT being killed, or Donald Trump, whose legislation on trans youth is about to make thousands of kids' lives so much harder), but bullying has led to suicides and assassinations globally. Just yesterday a transwoman was shot dead in America for being who she is - and she's not the first this year.

Now then, can you see why calling a transwoman a man is Very Bad?

If not, I suggest that you research it on google and see how words can hurt people.

Again, the absolute refusal to understand LGBT topics on mumsnet is incredibly upsetting to me.

SheRaaarghPrincessOfPower · 26/02/2017 22:45

I genuinely really struggle with this subject.

I really don't understand why this is hate speech.

"wictional

Transwomen are men.

This is hate speech. Pure and simple."

It's biological fact. Trans women are men (adult males).

I also don't know how much being autistic affects my ability to understand this subject. I'm female. I don't really understand gender. Pink and Blue pisses me right off. I just do not get it.

GardenGeek · 26/02/2017 22:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ToastDemon · 26/02/2017 22:47

God that's patronising with your little Very Bad caps thing.
Do you honestly think people discussing this aren't au fait with the supposed theory behind all of this?
I'm truly sorry for anyone with gender dysphoria as I am for anyone in mental distress, but that certainly doesn't mean I have to buy into any fictions regarding sex and biology.

midcenturymodern · 26/02/2017 22:49

A) I didn't say it was about bathrooms, I was merely pointing out the sheer ignorance of some posts
B) transwomen are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple. There is no 'vague feeling' about it

A - Literally your whole post was about bathrooms. It is not 'ignorant' to know facts and basic definitions of words

B - Transwomen are men. That is what the 'trans' is for.
'Feeling like a woman' is a vague feeling. If you are not a woman you don't know what feeling like a women entails so it is demonstrably a vague feeling. Even if you are a woman I think you'd be hard pressed to define it beyond 'I am a woman therefore I feel like a woman.' It's hardly the epitome of rigour.
If not being comfortable is such an outrage, why should woman feel 'uncomfortable' in women's spaces by opening them up to anyone who wants to self identify into them? No, wait...I think I know this one. It's because women's discomfort is just intolerance and the fact that sexual and violent crime is overwhelming committed by men is irrelevant to women's fear.

lottieandmia · 26/02/2017 22:49

Wictional, you might think it's childish. When your rights are
away you might think again.

How can a man know he's a woman? He was born a man. All this crap about lady brains is nonsense.

The problem for a lot of men who say they should have been born a woman is that they try to perpetuate stereotypes about what a woman should look like. And this in itself is mysogynist.

Do you not see that female biology is central to why women are oppressed?!

ToastDemon · 26/02/2017 22:50

I should add, I actually also used to think that saying that transwomen were men was hate speech. Ironically it was further reading that changed my views.

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 26/02/2017 22:50

transwomen are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple

Except if they have penises, they are men. And we should not be forced into having them in womens spaces that make women feel uncomfortable.
Why does our comfort not matter?

BarbarianMum · 26/02/2017 22:51

Trying to live as a woman is fine but it does not make you a woman. And if you are a biologically intact male your ability to perceive what living as a woman actually entails and experience life as a biological woman does it is extremely limited.

WhisperedLoudest · 26/02/2017 22:51

Words hurting people is really not the same as biological facts killing thousands is it?! Grin Hmm

lottieandmia · 26/02/2017 22:51

I see you've also ignored my point about transwomen commit crimes at the same rate as men

Why do you think that is? It's because they are biologically men.

Mrsmorton · 26/02/2017 22:53

Wiktional ok, I'm digesting the first part of your post. The hitler stuff is reactionary and I'll not comment on that.

Tell me, how is Danielle Muscato living as a woman? What is it that separates Danielle from men? And why does whatever separates him from men, not apply to Rachel dolezal?

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 26/02/2017 22:54

Now then, if you say to that woman that she is a man, this is misgendering, which is an act of violence under the WHO definition (psychological). It is like bullying but on a much deeper scale

So if I see a person who has a penis and a beard, and all the testosterone and strength and privelidge of being a man, but who identifies as a woman, and not want them in the spaces reserved for women, that is an act of violence?
But these people telling is that we are not defineable as woman, that we have no right to our own spaces, that we are not allowed to label things as for women, that everything we have must be given to them is not just not bullying, but a Very Good Thing?

How the FUCK is that fair?

SheRaaarghPrincessOfPower · 26/02/2017 22:57

I guess x post there

merrymouse · 26/02/2017 23:02

I'll go back to basics for you.

A transwoman is a person who was born into a male body

No, a man is somebody with a male body.

You aren't 'born into a body', you are just born, unless you believe in things like souls. Many people do believe in souls, but that is belief, not biology.

Gender expectations and cultural norns are harmful and limiting, but biology is inescapable.

lottieandmia · 26/02/2017 23:03

'Misgendering is violence'

HiDBandSIL · 26/02/2017 23:04

Just to say thank you (again) to all of the amazing Mumsnetters who take the time to explain the threat that transideology poses for women. I have learnt so much from all of you and I have passed that information on in real life to raise awareness of this issue.

My mind is boggling over the suggestion that calling a spade a spade is hate speech. Can the truth ever constitute hate speech?

midcenturymodern · 26/02/2017 23:04

How many women have been killed in the USA this year in gendered violence? Clue - it's more than 5.

Who is committing the murders, both of transwomen and women? Men or women? Yet our fears of men are considered to be bigotry and transwomens fears of men are totally logical, understandable and worth of a change in the actual law to prevent uncomfortable feelings.

Why is gaslighting women into thinking their legitimate fears are bigotry not psychological bullying? Do you really think this doesn't psychologically damage women? We are constantly told our fears are stupid and irrelevant, and then when something happens it's 'well, you should have got a cab' etc.

Bullying trans people is not OK. Murdering trans people is, obviously, not OK, but making this the problem of women is also not OK. AFAIK, nobody has been arrested for the murder of Chyna Doll Dupree, but I'd bet my house she wasn't murdered by a woman committing 'literal violence' by saying transwomen are biological men.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 26/02/2017 23:04

It is like bullying but on a much deeper scale

Happy to go in with the bullying bit...but its not on a deeper scale

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 26/02/2017 23:05

Tell me, how is Danielle Muscato living as a woman? What is it that separates Danielle from men? And why does whatever separates him from men, not apply to Rachel dolezal?

And why doesn't it work the other way? If I said I identify as man, but I carry on my life with breasts, periods, having babies, looking very female with long hair and make up and so on...is there any space at all that would accept me as a man and called me George? Men aren't expected to move over and let women in like we are, they aren't expected to accommodate at their own expense.
I doubt anyone would take me seriously at all, the way some people seem to take your one Dannielle whatever seriously.

SoulSearcher101 · 26/02/2017 23:06

Now then, if you say to that woman that she is a man, this is misgendering, which is an act of violence under the WHO definition (psychological). It is like bullying but on a much deeper scale

Linguistic gymnastics, the notion that someone is capable of "misgendering" when referring to sex differences is cognitive dissonance of the highest order as we have already established sex and gender are defined differently ergo to say a transwoman is a man cannot be referred to in terms of gender.

Strongerandleaner · 26/02/2017 23:12

A feature of anoxia nervosa is the belief by the sufferer that s/he is fat despite physical evidence to the contrary.
So is it "hate speech" to not play along? Is it "phobic" to not recommned a weight loss diet?

BevGoldbergsSister · 26/02/2017 23:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 26/02/2017 23:21

Much better, Bev.

Kikikaakaa · 26/02/2017 23:28

I don't hate anyone transgender but they are transgender and I fail to understand why it is an issue to be transgender woman instead of 'woman', when they aren't women, they are a transgender woman. Why is the label so deeply important, can't we have more than 2 genders? Why does it have to be only male and female? And yes I feel like my opinions as a woman count for shit and I am accused transphobic for having any kind of opinion that doesn't suit trans rights groups

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