To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Bitof isn't it exactly the point that because bathrooms are slightly unsafe spaces women want to feel as safe as possible in them? And therefore don't want the (by far) majority perpetrators of violence against women - i.e., men - to have access to them?

The basic point underlying all of the gendered space debate is that women have a rational fear of violence from men, which is not the same as a phobia.

Also, why do you think individual cubicles are safer? I would think it is precisely because women's toilets are usually spaces with a group of other women in them that they are felt to be safe?

Bitofacow - out comes the dictionary again:

Sex: Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Gender: Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

OED

Philosophically would it be better if reproductive functions were fluid? Hmmm may have to think about that one.

Bit of a cow You would need professional help. Psychological, I mean. Isn't an insult- it's a response to body dysmorphia.

I hope all of us are kind to everyone but we need freedom of speech to give our views on all these issues.

I would like things to be less gendered. I don't like to have to put Ms on a letter and I would prefer my passport didn't say I am female. I am not trans but would prefer less putting of women and men into boxes.

I never have issues over public loos and that kind of thing as I tend not to use them so I can't really see they are big issue. In fact we have none locally unfortunately, been phased out to save money.

I think women sometimes cannot get a word in edgeways in expressing views so I would be concerned if say a transwoman ended up dominating conversation on line or if she were taking a valuable and rare place on a committee when it would be fairer another woman had that spot as women find it so hard to get positions of power anyway that we don't want to lose any to trans women, we have few enough as it stands but I don't know that that is a particular problem, Live and let live.

Bit - Why do you think I insulted you?

You asked ""If you are different physically, emotionally or mentally and you can not claim to be wholly and unequivocally boy or girl you are.......... What? Wrong? In limbo?"

And I said that you would need psychological help in that case. Which is fact.

You must know that a psychologist is the first port of call in such situations. Why do you think it is an insult?

Women are objecting to mention in their safe, sex-segregated spaces. Because men are the ones who represent a danger to us.
Where the issue arises is that some people believe that transwoman shouldn't be excluded because they are actually women, whereas others point out perfectly correctly that they are still biological men.
So no-one is calling all transwomen rapists.
However one is accused of transphobia for saying that transwomen are men.
That is wrong as it's an attempt to force people to buy into a belief system.

Transwomen want to coopt women's safe spaces because men are violent and dangerous.

Transwomen are men.

I can't square this. I'm not transphobic in the same way I'm not arachnophobic. I'm not irrationally scared of trans folk, or spiders. I'm rationally scared that there are some harmful ones out there though and that there's no way for anyone to make the distinction.

"I never have issues over public loos and that kind of thing as I tend not to use them"

Transwomen are men.

This is hate speech. Pure and simple.

Whilst conditions that come under the umbrella term Intersex (which is a clumsy term), occur in about 1% of the population, many of those conditions do not exclude sufferers from the male and female categories. People with true intersex, meaning between sexes and therefore un-categorisable as either male or female are mercifully rare. Should those people be able to self-determine their sex? Yes, absolutely but you don't need to turn definitions upside down, and in doing so adversely affect large swathes of the population to accommodate them.

Sex is a binary. The expression of sex characteristics, however, happens on a spectrum. This does not make the two categories defunct though, it merely means that the terms are somewhat broader in their definitions than was previously thought.

Gender shackels women.

But then so does sex.

Only when value/worth is attributed to sex characteristics. Sex is just sex. It is a happening at conception that has no intrinsic meaning or value other than the differentiating of those that can impregnate with those that can gestate.

wictional is stating a biological fact hate speech now? That is worrying if so.

• A - It's not about bathrooms B - I'm old enough to remember when areas where women are vulnerable were segregated by sex, not by some vague feeling. We segregate by sex, not because of phobia, but of an entirely rational fear (in the case of toilets, changing rooms, prisons, shelters etc.) and because of under-representation/oppression (in the case of scholarships/prizes) and because sex bodied are different from each other (in the case of sports, maternity and reproductive rights). *

A) I didn't say it was about bathrooms, I was merely pointing out the sheer ignorance of some posts.
B) transwomen are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple. There is no 'vague feeling' about it.

All this about: 'why do people think all transwomen are rapists and will attack women in bathrooms - this is transphobic' is a massive straw transman of an argument.

No one believes that.

The problem is that it isn't about transwomen at all anymore.

We are protected by laws currently that keep men in men's spaces and allow women to
be safe in their own. These are being removed by actual LEGISLATION.

Sorry for shouting, but it's scary.

At the moment we can use common sense and say 'who uses which bathroom may not be important, but we want to keep male sex offenders out of women's prisons that's obvious!'

But the 'it's obvious!' sentiment goes right out of the window when it is enshrined in law that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman and gets the full force of equality legislation on their side at women's expense.

It does no one any good - probably especially not gender dysphoric transpeople who are doing their best to 'pass' and live a quiet life.

This is happening. It's not made up and over-blown. It's fact!

Speaking for myself, I would say use whichever bloody toilet you feel comfortable with - just don't go changing the laws that protect us from men. Not transwomen - Men.

wictional Why is it hate speech?

Found this

wictional is stating a biological fact hate speech now? That is worrying if so.

So you're advocating the ignorant use of language that has led to thousands of deaths? Very interesting.

Can you provide evidence that this "ignorant use of language" has lead to thousands of deaths? That would be very interesting too.

Wictional - have you researched this?

Transwomen are biologically male. They have XY chromosomes. They also commit crimes at the same rate as men!

Why should women be forced to move over and give Up safe spaces that were fought hard for? Why should the rights of trans women trump those of women with female biology? Because of the misogynist society we still live in, that's why.

Female biology is central to why women are oppressed.

wiktional c'mon don't be that poster who throws the grenade then fucks off with no substance. How is a transwoman not a man? They're not a woman as we've seen several posters give the definition of a woman. So please please explain? Genuinely open to your rational, evidence based explanation.

" Led to thousands of deaths?" How? And of whom specifically?

Please show me direct evidence of someone saying "transwomen are male" and then thousands of people dying.

"Transwomen are men." This is hate speech. Pure and simple.
Nah.

So you're advocating the ignorant use of language that has led to thousands of deaths? Very interesting.
It's not even vaguely interesting. It's bollocks and you know it

' B) transwomen are not men and should not be forced to use a space in which they are not comfortable. It's really that simple. There is no 'vague feeling' about it.'

Women who are biologically female shouldn't be forced to share safe spaces with men who've just decided they're a woman. Some of these men are abusers who have seen a way to target vulnerable women in rape crisis centres.

Thousands of deaths? How can a factual statement cause death? Trans women are biologically male. Fact. Hence 'Trans'