To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

"Everything else is either a man or an abnormality"

Now that is definitely transphobic

I think you have seriously misunderstood the question Pacha

You would say that, wouldn't you? If you don't like the answer, attack the person. Nice :)

"Everything else is either a man or an abnormality"

Now that is definitely transphobic grin

No - it's scientific!

There is no way you can be half man/half woman. This is an abnormality. Fullstop.

I don't care if someone thinks they are trans, or gay or god, for that matter. It's their problem. But to attack us women, play us for dumb and take away sacred rights - I don't think they thought this one through very well!

Sacharissa You just have to wade in and be prepared to back track.

That's the way I did it, still do! Many of the posters who appear scary now will bend over backwards to explain their pov clearly if you try to enter a debate.

Not knowing isn't the problem. Not acknowledging that there is more than one perspective is the real problem. Both sides tend to get entrenched, combative.

Just throw yourself in...

Bang on, GardenGeek , bang on!

A woman is an adult human female (but not all of them because some of them are men), or an adult human male (because some of them are women).

The main reason is that I'm not eloquent enough to explain my point of view and to robustly debate with people without getting frustrated at my inability to say what I mean and I'm not good enough to come up with the right arguments.

Fair enough, but maybe have a think about why that is. Perhaps its not you, but that the arguments you want to make don't stand up to any challenge from people who've thought them through just as much if not more?

You would say that, wouldn't you? If you don't like the answer, attack the person. Nice OK! Did you read the rest of my post that explains why I think you misunderstood?

I think you have arrived 20 pages into a discussion that has grown its own narrative and have misunderstood the question, in the context of the thread!

What gardengeek said.

But to attack us women, play us for dumb and take away sacred rights - I don't think they thought this one through very well! OK! I take back my previous post.

You are being deliberately obtuse and goady! Nice

Are you actually a man? I can't imagine any female woman I know talking about our 'sacred rights'

if anyone has any to add then please let me know. I am yet to see any current issue which does not boil down to these points at the end of any discussion - thus causing a lack of discussion based on any actual reasoning as opposed to emotions. Thus creating this post-truth world we live in.

I totally agree. You can't stop people having opinions you don't agree with. They will still have them.

GardenGeek - 'problematic' is a good all-purpose one

venus nah, I'm just really bad at debating people - it's just one of those things.

I am reading and learning and thinking about the kind of facts/figures I'd want to have to hand before I did wade in properly though.

Maybe one day I'll be brave enough but I'm slightly hungover today too so it's not right now

I think all of us support transwomen in being able to dress as they wish and not to face discrimination in employment, housing etc
BUT
not when it means reducing the safety, or opportunities of women

Transwomen competing in womens sporting events means the end of any future in sport for those born female.
In most sports, there are thousands of men who could defeat the womens champion.
Sportsmen are under no threat from transwomen

Transwomen may feel scared & vulnerable when using mens toilets, but so do teenage boys, feminine gay men.
There is far less risk of violence in womens toilets and when it happens, it is nearly always committed by someone born male
Allowing more people born male into womens toilets would increase violence there
Ditto into womens refuges, hospital wards, prisons,

Feminists would stand with transwomen against violence.
But most violence against both groups are committed by men
In the UK in 2016, there were 126 women murdered and 1 transwoman

Men<a class="break-all" href="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/220090/criminal-justice-stats-sept-2012.pdf%20Gov%20MOJ%20Stats%20Table%20Q4.2%5D%5D%20,%20%5B%5Bwww.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/janiceturner/article3768313.ece%20The%20Times%5D" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> commit the vast majority of serious crime:

• 85% of all indictable crimes in England & Wales
• 88% of crimes against the person
• 98% of sexual offences

Refs Gov MOJ Stats Table Q4.2<a class="break-all" href="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/220090/criminal-justice-stats-sept-2012.pdf%20Gov%20MOJ%20Stats%20Table%20Q4.2%5D%5D%20,%20%5B%5Bwww.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/janiceturner/article3768313.ece%20The%20Times%5D" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> , The Times

This is not just about trans rights, its about our right to have and retain sex discrimination laws that are based on sex, not gender.

That! The last 20 pages have had so many variations of it. But just that! You need nothing else to understand the issue.

I don't think there are any arguments you can make that people won't be able to counter, Sacha. Read all the articles you like but none of this stands up to scrutiny, hence transactivists needing to shut all debate right down. Think about it.

What can we do about this?

I don't think that question has a simple answer. Some people will suggest letting 'genuine' trans people into their preferred toilets, but then the problem arises of how do we know work is genuine?

Then people would say to sex segregate places, but 1) TransActivists would fIghtfield against this and 2) how would we know someone's sex?

Or we could create a third unisex place but this would be expensive and again, we'd have TransActivists shouting it down.

There really isn't an answer that won't offend someone. If people kept gender synonymous to sex then I doubt we'd be having this discussion at all.

I think a lot of this transgender MTW stuff is fetish behaviour.