To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

I have nothing against trans adults. I have a major, major issue with diagnosing young children as trans. Let them grow up without putting them in a box so they can make their own decision when they're old enough to understand what it is they're making a decision about. I didn't know who I "was" as such until I was at least in my early 20s. I don't agree with going along with children making life changing decisions they can't reverse.

I assure you a sexual assault by a woman to another woman can be just as harmful as a sexual assault by a man using his penis.
The issue here is that most sexual assaults are carried out by men - that is, people with penises. Not by biological women. I have been sexually assaulted four times in my life, every time by a man. Never by a woman.

That is why women are concerned about anyone who identifies as a women being allowed in the women's toilets. Or in a women's refuge. Or a women's prison of MH facility.

Can we please stop calling it a choice?

Ok, I know nothing all that much about 'Lian' Huntley's inner mind (thank God). But he is a born man who committed a horrific crime and as such has had a fucking terrible time in prison at the hands of other men (meh). He is now apparently transitioning to become a woman.

Now, of course, it could be that he has always felt that he is a woman trapped in a man's body, and after several years in prison has now become brave enough to let 'the real her' out and make that courageous step to transition.

Or it could be that he thinks that he will get an easier ride of it in a woman's prison and, given his life is fucked anyway he might as well go with the transgender thing and get out of the men's prison.

Obviously we don't know, but I know which one makes more sense to me.

There was a study by the Williams Instiute in 2015 which was called out for using 'false data'.

The study I saw questioned a sample of 27,000 people. It was reported by The Guardian in December 2016: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/08/transgender-survey-suicide-poverty-unemployment-mental-health

Haven't seen anything about this one being debunked but am prepared to be wrong...

I don't think beyond is trans.

draylon

I might be wrong but i dont think beyond is conflicted about her gender

It is a choice for some. You are confusing "gender dysphoria" with "transgender" which is a much wider, more nebulous category.

You're right about it not being a choice I think, much like sexuality isn't it? But that has nothing to do with the transactivist position, nor that of feminist opposition, aka TERFs.

I would agree, because the trans people I know, say that changing their apparent sex became an overriding imperative in their lives. An imperative they worked hard to achieve.

But that has nothing to do with the platforming to make being female just a subset of being 'a woman', the thing we apparent TERFs object to.

No I'm not trans, sorry if I was confusing.

I am autistic and have struggled with not "fitting" for, well, forever.

It used to be that anyone who described themselves as trans suffered crippling dysphoria. This is no longer true. The trans umbrella now covers men who cross dress at the weekend, and a load of other variations. A lot of it is fuelled by porn.

I think beyond's point is that a lot of people attempt suicide.

I would add that it is never acceptable to use suicide threats to control other people's behaviour. It is highly abusive behaviour in any other context. I have experienced it myself as part of a DV relationship.

OurBlanche - I don't have a clear definition for 'woman' and 'female'.

This is partly because I have a good friend who was born without ova or the ability to bear children. She's never questioned whether she's female - to her, she's a woman who can't have children. I've seen at least one post on this thread where someone said that having ova and an ability to carry a child was one of the things that's made them female.

I'm not disagreeing with her - just saying it's more complicated than that.

Sorry beyond, I didn't mean to talk for you when you'd already answered. Am on a train with crap reception.

The trans umbrella now covers men who cross dress at the weekend, and a load of other variations.

Isn't this transvestitism rather than transgenderism?

Hump, the 40% suicide rate is a con. Here's a link analysing the data.

The perception of women as the biological reproductive class is something that women are socialised to expect, Hump. This affects women whether they have physical issues with fertility or have children or not. It shapes our lives and how people treat us. It does not affect transwomen unless they are in the tiny percentage who are able to "pass" to everyone as women.

Yes I guess I'm a denier by that definition. I believe being transgender is a cultural response, sometimes to abuse and suffering, sometimes to more general issues in society. (I'm aware that last phrase is pretty vague). I would differentiate that from a mental health issue, though I think there are some people for whom mental suffering leads them down this route as well. I think it's truly fascinating that there is a higher proportion of people with autism who are transgender than seems to be the case in the wider population. I assume that this phenomenon is being researched.

I have seen and worked with transgender people who gain a palpable increase in peace and a better life through transition. I don't think that they can, or have, changed sex. I think it says quite a lot about what men have not done to break down the rigidity of traditional masculinity, and it is frustrating to me that it is women, as usual, who are struggling with this and not men going 'hang on, what is it about male roles, lives, expectations that cause a proportion of us, and particularly a proportion of those of us with autism, to literally castrate ourselves rather than live within them'?

I couldn't care less, quite frankly, who is in the same toilet as me, and there are plenty of laws on abuse and rape which would cover anything going wrong in that area. I am much more concerned about the inroads into education policy made by very small groups, and the women's sport and scholarships issues.

No, it isn't, Hump. They are now considered "transgender". That is th umbrella term. I imagine the word "transvestisism" is considered transphobic. What do you think the meaningful difference is?

Transvestites now fall under the trans umbrella. So when you're being asked to be tolerant and understanding, these guys are just as entitled to women's spaces.

No because if you self identify, then you can simply decide that you are that gender and are afforded the access to the places that sex it entitled to. There is no other criteria than self identification, no test. That's what the proposed legislation is all about. No social or physical transition required, no time marks. So a man can put on his suit and tie and go to his city job Mon-Fri, then don some stockings and Lo, allowed to shower with the women.

I assure you a sexual assault by a woman to another woman can be just as harmful as a sexual assault by a man using his penis

Maybe, but its also massively less likely. The most dangerous thing for women is men. Men worry about heart disease and terrorists, women worry about men.

We can't stop worrying about men just because they've said they feel like women.

Hump it used to be but the word transvestite seems to have become offensive and instead wearing woman's clothes is now viewed under the trans/genderqueer umbrella.

Hump In my world your friend still is female because, but for a genetic anomaly, she would have those sexual organs.

My loose definition is based on genes, rather that the physical or physiological representation of them.

So a female is XY as a genetic expression. Physical anomalies would not change that.

Intersex is a chromosomal accident.

XX is male.

Gender is as social construct so anyone can be man or woman, as and when they decide to be. But female and male are set by genes.

So 'woman' of any sort is a subset of female... female = woman; woman by gender choice = woman but not female. I don't really care! Not until a man who has made a decision to become a woman tries to dominate any female space, discussion, anything, by don't of shouting louder and calling me names!

Of course, if someone comes and tears that down, I will listen, read and re-think!

No points for spotting the glaring error! No idea how that happened!

Maybe my subconscious disagrees with me

Tis the other way around. XX female.