To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

Doesn't that show that it's not transphobia other wise the same would be being said for transmen. The issue women have is an erosion of women's rights. Transmen don't endanger that.

No it shows that it is women who have a problem with trans women, a problem that men seem to be able to get over when it comes to trans men.

I'm not going to get raped by a woman though, am I? I can assure you that it is generally the penis, and its owner, that is the problem.
I assure you a sexual assault by a woman to another woman can be just as harmful as a sexual assault by a man using his penis. Its like one of the guns sat in the police station down the road, it can't hurt anyone unless in someone's hands. The intent is the issue.

As for the toilet issue, I have no problem sharing a bathroom with my two transgender colleagues, that's what cubicles are for! I wouldn't want to use any bathroom without cubicles, unisex, trans accepted or "born in a female body" only.

Draylon, re "pulled up by another poster who also thinks there's transphobia on MN"

I think you have misunderstood my position here

augustbody

I completely agree with you, I think that's how I feel. There would be no other situation where it would be acceptable or even possible to identify as something you are biologically not, but for some reason at the moment it is okay to do that regarding gender.

Be transgender and be accepting that you are transgender. Be proud. The truth is nothing will ever make you biologically not a man, right? So why is it okay to force law changes relating to women instead of accepting the reality that you were not born a woman, but it is perfectly okay to identify as transgender. Maybe more acceptance and support is needed. Rather than trying to shoe horn a completely separate group of people into the "female" category.

Despite the fact that anorexia and body dysphoria are considered MH issues, a man declaring that he's a woman and demanding to use women's showers is considered completely sane. If you doubt that you'll be called transphobic.

"can be just as harmful as a sexual assault by a man using his penis"

STI transfer risk is much lower and no risk of pregnancy, so male assault has the potential to be much more (empirically measured) harmful.

"Doesn't that show that it's not transphobia other wise the same would be being said for transmen. The issue women have is an erosion of women's rights. Transmen don't endanger that.

No it shows that it is women who have a problem with trans women, a problem that men seem to be able to get over when it comes to trans men."

CrazyGreyhound sorry but I think that's completely wrong. I don't want to be presumptuous enough to speak on other people's behalf (as you have in the post I quoted) but I personally have no problem whatsoever with trans people, it is absolutely only the infringements these women's rights these attitudes propose. I'm pretty sure most ladies here feel the same.

And are we really going to argue that a man raping a woman is just as common and equal in severity to a woman assaulting another woman??

Draylon - thanks for your post. It stands out as a voice of reason.

"BACK to the OP:

SO, what can we do about this issue? How can we get our voices heard?

How can we make it clear we don't want to shut down trans-people, silence them, or deny them rights, but their rights must not trump those hard-fought rights of women, in the -ahem- 'cis' sense.

Their issues must not become our problem. And forcing that agenda will backfire so that those who argue sensibly, reasonably fairly (to all stakeholders), and as sensitively as possible about this contentious issue do not find themselves forced into a corner where their only recourse becomes calling transwomen 'Blokes in dresses'."

And one further point - there's been a lot of talk about choice on this thread. People choosing to identify as male or female. I'm not trans so my understanding is maybe limited, but I believe this is not a question of choice, in the same way that sexuality is not a choice. If you google 'transgender suicide', you'll see that the statistic quoted most often is that 40% of transgender people have attempted to take their own life. Can we please stop calling it a choice?

I've attempted suicide. A lot of people have.

Sorry Draylon, I think Beyond is very much in the feminist camp though? Or am I confusing her with another poster? Sorry this thread is moving so fast!!!

There are a lot of people apparently unhappy in their bodies. This is one thing.
Saying someone can change sex and they feel like a woman/man is where are arguments start.
I am a woman because I have (or had) the potential to produce eggs. This isn't complicated but it has suddenly come up for debate.
Intersex is also completely separate from the trans debate.
All these issues have been conflated and really this is why so much disagreement occurs.
There is a fair amount of unscientific newspeak in mainstream reporting of the issues which is making it worse.
I don't think mumsnet is transphobic though but it is critical of the existence of gender.

I am BeyondTheTerf. I have seen another Beyond around recently though!! 😨

Beyond

Some people do 'choose' to be trans though, to gain access to places. Also, children don't choose to be trans but are still shoved down that road sometimes. Also, wasn't the suicide percentage proven false?

Men aren't frightened of transmen. They have no reason to fear them. Transmen, it seems, often continue using the ladies for fear of their safety
Women otoh, have every reason to fight against having men in our sex segregated spaces, because it's not safe.

I can't find a case of a transwoman being attacked in the gents. There are a huge number of examples of women being attacked by men who present as women in women's loos, changing rooms etc.

This is just one list. There are others.

Can anyone explain what "feeling like a man/woman" or "being born in the wrong body" feels like? Not a goady question, I promise.

I'm gender critical, I believe gender is a social construct. I don't know what it's like to "feel like a woman". I AM a woman, I am biologically female, but I don't know what "feeling like a woman" feels like. I only know what it's like to feel like Page. How do I know if that's similar or different to how other women feel? Or other men, for that matter? I wear dresses, I don't wear make up. I like pink (in moderation), I love football. I have long hair, I only ever wear flat lace up shoes. I am more than the sum of my parts. Wearing dresses and liking pink and having long hair no more makes me a woman than not wearing make up and loving football and preferring brogues makes me a man.

Gender is reductive bollocks.

No it shows that it is women who have a problem with trans women, a problem that men seem to be able to get over when it comes to trans men.

Men aren't threatened by women. They're not being bullied into sleeping with transwomen. They are in a privileged position in relation to women, including transmen, a subsection of biological women. Are you really so obtuse that you can't see this point at all?

Why do people keep equating being trans with being gay?

Being gay is just an innate thing - it's not something which is 'out of step with the rest of you' and requires surgery to 'put right'. Neither does it require anyone else to move over, change their own definition or notice up their rights to accommodate yours.

Would anyone call being gay 'a condition'?

What formerbabe says.

Also I'm pretty understanding as it goes. I would wish gender dysphoria on anyone I think it's incredibly traumatic and painful. However I have no issue with trans folk and I certainly don't want them discriminated against in the true sense.

I'm very pro trans rights but I'm not pro trans rights trumping women's rights.

Having cosmetic surgery and wearing a frock doesn't make you a woman and or give you that exclusive understanding of women's issues and the feminist movement etc.

This whole issue is such a shame because in the past I imagine most feminists would have been very understanding about trans rights as a marginalised group but since they tried to insist they were in charge of feminism it's all gone very sour.

This is why I fight against the rising tide of erosion of women's spaces including bathrooms.

www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article134353039.html

“The Plaintiffs have been forced to share intimate facilities with men, who allege they are women,” the Feb. 15 complaint states. “These men openly express their sexual desire for the women inmates, at times, in the showers, and bathrooms, while women are naked or partially clothed.

“The men expose themselves, intentionally, for their own sexual gratification, causing the Plaintiffs to suffer disgust, embarrassment, humiliation, stress, degradation, fear and loss of dignity.”

HumpMeBogart I agree, and that post was a really good post :)

You're right about it not being a choice I think, much like sexuality isn't it?

I think we need more mental health support (in general) but also especially for LGBT people. Not because they should be "talked out of it! or anything (I saw one post saying about how some trans people liken counselling to conversion therapy, so just wanted to clarify I don't mean that)but because obviously for many there is still a stigma attached to coming out and societal pressures.

Maybe there would be less conflict between trans and womens' rights if there was more support and openness to being LGBT in itself? It's sounds stupid to say but I feel like seeking validity as a woman would be less if it was more acceptable to be a trans man in the first place?