To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

These threads always descend into insults and bullying. I find in inestimably sad that you feel as though you have been insulted and/or bullied on this thread. Mainly because you doubtless include me in that behaviour.

Like others I have disagreed with you, challenged you, asked you questions - which you have not answered, thus making discussion impossible.

Stay, discuss, debate, exchange views, answer and ask questions. How else can any of us change anything?

And in addition to what ourblanche says most intersex people resent being co-opted by the trans activists

And women with PCOS.

No Bit that was genuine. But you do appear to read insults where they are not there

I was trying to read through the whole thread before commenting, but I haven't got that far.

Trans women should be allowed access to women's spaces because they are women. Your gender identity is not more valid because you happen to have been born with female sex organs.
By this logic, a transwoman can join a women's running club. Owing to the impact of underlying male biology and having gone through make puberty, this transwoman will probably win all the races. As I understand it (and I might be wrong, and I hope I am) if the legislation currently under consideration goes through, the biological women in the club will not be able to form a club that excludes anyone, whatever their biology, who says they 'feel like a woman' (even if it becomes apparent that they only 'feel like a woman' on running club nights and at races).

And that will be the end of women's sport. And it really, truly sucks like a fucking Dyson.

But discussing this makes me a transphobe, and being cross about it makes me rude.

There is uproar when the issue of trans-women using women's toilets comes up, usually people think that allowing trans-women into a women's toilet will lead them to be sexually assaulted. This is selfish bullshit. A trans-woman is much more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's toilet than a born-woman is to be assaulted by a trans-woman in the ladies.

This can't be said often enough. It's not the post-op transwomen in the ladies lavs who worry me, barin. It's the pre-op, pre-hormones treatment transwomen who are sexually attracted to women that worry me. And the people who worry me most are the sex pests who shave nicely, put their hair up in a ponytail and put on dress for the purpose of entering the ladies lavs to assault women. Given the lengths that men who assault women are prepared to go to, I think this is an entirely rational concern.

But no, apparently it's not. It's selfish bullshit.
Fuck that.

Women who fear men believe that trans-women are still men, still intent on assaulting them, still objectifying them and still believe themselves superior.
Any fear I have of men is rational. Like most women, I've been sexually assaulted, and I'd prefer it not to happen again, and I'd prefer it not to happen to my DDs. but apparently this is thinking myself superior.

It's very hard to polite on threads like this when such ill-thought-out nonsense is being spouted.

It is entirely right (and reasonable) for women to fight to retain their rights against any who threaten them, no matter who. I reckon the Pankhursts would be spinning in their graves at the moment.

Ourblanche no I wouldn't include you. I would happily debate with you.

But honestly I haven't got the time to copy and paste the insults and goady comments. You know. You can read them.

I am not thin skinned but I want a real debate not insults and point scoring. The tiresome, childish goady shit fucks me off because I am interested and engaged, I just don't want to wade through dross.

You extreme reaction to a typographical error sums up this thread What extreme reaction? I didn't respond to it, I asked you to clarify, suspecting a typo. How is that extreme?

Mercy calling someone my dear is genuine and not goady?

OK I'm off through the looking glass.

She's just being goady. I'd ignore. If she actually said anything of substance I'd engage.

But Bitof you just referred to may asking you to clarify a possible typo as an "extreme reaction^

So you have included me and you have shown a thin skin. Surely you can see that?

It's still a shame that you feel hounded. I don't see it! I see a couple of posts that have 'lol' at something you posted. That's it!

my dear is patronising, usually deliberate. Something that happens when trying to convey tone on a forum!

Often backfires!

The people who agree post and run for obvious reasons. The same people denying any transphobia are the same people who would deny that there is an aggressive and immovable presence here. Why would I spend my day "debating" with people who are absolutely decided and only interested in my input to shoot it down?

"People with penises"
The disgust felt towards men, particularly MtF by a section of MN posters is palpable.

The woman who posted the other day about a single FtM student at the school she had chosen for her daughter was a good snapshot of hysterical ignorance against transpeople

Comparisons with religion are valid. Trans ideology is like a cult. I'm fine with people wearing whatever they like but we are being told that to call a transwoman "he" is wrong, even though he may be a father whose lifelong fame stems from winning athletic events not open to women. This is thought police stuff - it's demanding that we believe in someone else's gender identity.

As for cis... People who are cis are, we are told, those whose sex matches their gender identity. But I don't have a gender identity. I have a sex and a personality.

Sorry OP I dont see rampant transphobia on MN . I see what is mainly a woman's forum discussing very current and very real concerns regarding the erosion of womens rights and the language to talk about that erosion. I,m thankful for MN as there are very few places you can discuss this without being called bigoted, phobic, cis-scum and told to die in a fire.
Discussion regarding this needs to take place. We currently have trump and brexit to deal with because peoples very real concerns about increased immigration and its effects on their jobs, communities and wages were not allowed to be discussed without screams of racist and bigot. Censorship causes more problems than it tries to solve because at some point you get a backlash and they aren't pretty. The only ones to suffer in a backlash would be genuine transgender and dysphoric people. The very ones the allies claim they are trying to protect.

Hi :)

Sorry to jump in the middle of a discussion, especially since I'm not very clued up in regards to transgender activism or anything (but I am really interested and want to learn more). Just going through the thread and I have found the different perspectives really interesting and insightful.

A bit like the OP, I'm not sure where I stand exactly. On the one hand, I feel strongly and compassionately that people should be free to express themselves in whatever form they feel is necessary for them to be comfortable with themselves as long as it doesn't hurt others. On the other hand though, surely practicalities and realities still have to be taken into consideration?

My immediate thought at some of the interesting and valid points about female only spaces (IMO spaces like women's hostels and prisons are perfectly valid to take into account biological gender and be "cis" women only, for sure) was along the lines of, well why don't we have a separate space for transgender people then? And to hear that they vehemently oppose this actually really surprised me.

This might sound awful, please tell me if it is, but surely given the very real differences physically/biologically between people born as men and people born as women, doesn't there have to be a point where a group's desires do not outweigh the law? As in, why do these things need to be accepted as law, just because people want them to? It's not how I normally feel at all but I feel like a line has to be drawn. As in, as a MTW transgender I have the utmost sympathy and stand by your right to be transgender, but you are transgender, not a woman. Why does your desire to be validated as a woman outweigh established rights and laws, to the point where it infringes on women's rights to have safe spaces free of males?

Given the persecution that the LGBT community have faced, why would it be that they are not understanding towards women's societal and historic needs for solace from men in certain situations? It all sounds a bit arse over tit to me, a mad scramble to be as accepting as possible when it's actually damaging to everyone. But as long as we don't dare mention differences between biological gender's, everyone will be happy.. It's such an ethical minefield!

Bitofacow I'm sorry if you feel like you have been insulted on this thread. But the fact is that people have asked you very specific points and questions, which you have not really answered. Yes, sometimes the tone can be a bit off, but then again you are the one insulting people by calling them 'transphobic' without being able to give arguments or engage in robust debate about why that is the case.

Almost every single person who has agreed with the OP has come on to say they agree and gone off again. If you truly have the courage of your convictions then stay and tell everyone exactly why the label of 'transphobic' is justified.

The intersex thing is completely irrelevant. You cannot use the fact that a very small number of people are intersex to deny that sex is binary, in the same way that (and I'm shamelessly stealing from another thread here) you cannot use the fact that a small number of people are born with one leg to deny that humans as a species are bipedal.

So you have read the posts from people like myself that have tried hard to explain the cognitive dissonance Transactivists key into?

Then there is little point trying to explain again, as every word I type will only make you more certain that I am a man hating bigot rather than a human being who is finding that trying to reconcile her ideas regarding personal autonomy are being dismantled by individuals who are determined to misunderstand, to belittle, to sneer at and label me transphobic for not agreeing with all the gender rhetoric that is currently being brandished like a weapon!

[Apologies for that long sentence]

I think there are more important things to worry about in this debate than hurting a few thin skinned people's feelings by shooting down their poorly thought-through bullshit arguments. People who think nothing of slinging around words like "transphobic" and "bigoted" just because I care about my own rights and those of other women. You are not helping, are you?

It also seems contradictory in itself but I could be wrong... as in, there is so much publicity (to me it seems, and it's absolutely great that it's the case) and media around gender fluidity, accepting trans men and women for who they are and not putting people in boxes/conforming to limited gender stereotypes, but then causing a massive (for lack of a better word, sorry it's a bit degrading) fuss over not being accepted as biologically female and demanding the same rights as a female, seems a bit backwards to me? I could be completely wrong about that though.

OP did you fight this hard for the right of Rachel Dolenz to identify as black?
If not, why not?