To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

DS (16) wanted to input:

To the op, personally I think yabu. I look through the feminism boards with my mum quite a lot, and I've never seen any transphobia. Instead I see people having discussions about their rights and the current ideologies enforced on us by the media. I say this as a trans person, but I think that sex and gender are synonymous. Women are women due to biology, and the same applies to men. Trans people including myself will always remain their biological sex. I will always be female. Women's spaces should be for women only. Men's spaces should be for men only. There's a big difference from ordinary trans people who have genuine sex dysphoria and just want to be happy and TransActivists who give us a bad name and are very misogynistic and homophobic. I would honestly love to be comfortable with myself, but I'm not. I put off coming out as trans for several years because I didn't want to be associated withe the ridiculousness of the trans movement. I've suffered many mental health problems, and we had to pay for private counselling because we were refused it by the NHS because I didn't want puberty blockers (which I feel are very harmful to developing children). It's all thanks to Transactivists, who will tell you that any discussions surrounding biology are transphobic, whereas the rest of us accept our situation and get on with it. I really haven't seen any transphobia on this site at all, although others will tell you different.

Just to add I think in a few years time this debate will have evolved to a more common understanding and we'll be focusing on making everyone's spaces safer and protecting everyone from the aggressive few, regardless of sex or gender.

I know plenty of males who have had problems in male toilets because aggressive males will attack them without provocation. Also know of females in female toilets being aggressive. It's not gender we need to worry about and I think as time goes on we'll come to some understanding that it's the aggressive anti-social behaviour that is the problem.

What do you suggest? Shall we let all non aggressive males into women's spaces too?

But the vast majority of transwomen don't make a song and dance about going for a piss, they just go.
The vocal minority don't just want to go for a piss, they want everybody to know they're going and to insult or threaten anyone who might think 'hang on a minute' or be surprised as to what door they go through.
Until they stop assuming they speak for everyone and sod those who might want to ask a few questions the debate that is desperately needed can't happen.

"There is no reason why it hurts anyone to use the word 'cis' except it's a sign of losing that one bit of privilege"

The trouble with 'cis' is that it comes from a starting point of saying that it defines a person whose biology matches their gender identity. Many women don't accept gender identity as a positive thing, it is instead the rules imposed upon them by a society that is based on a history and continuation of male-majority power. Having spent years fighting to try to escape gender identity it is really unacceptable to then have it shackled back onto us in deference to others.

I get' they want to live their lives 'in peace' but how is it OK that that involves disturbing someone else's peace?. What's so special about this person who has chosen to identify with the female gender that their 'rights' ride roughshod over the rights of those of us born women? Who didn't choose that sex, but who live with it, warts, inequality, and all?

Yes. This. Exactly.

I think in a few years time this debate will have evolved to a more common understanding and we'll be focusing on making everyone's spaces safer and protecting everyone from the aggressive few, regardless of sex or gender. Absolutely, I hope!

Which makes having this debate, normalising language and behaviours in a good and acceptable-to-all compromise, is all important. We need to hurry up and get to a 'gender blind'/meritocratic society. Well we do if you want proper equality...

Toilets...

twitter.com/4th_wavenow/status/835664683788980226

twitter.com/terfisaslur?s=09

I have no such hopes of a non violent ending.
we've had 100,000 years of men and women loving each other to create babies and that often ends in violence.

Op, and other posters supporting the trans-agenda: do you support Ian Huntley's right to a sex change?

Serious question! He is applying for one.

Yes, I know many females fear aggressive males in their space and that is why many don't want any penises in that space. I totally get that. But my dp has a penis and if he used a female toilet no one in there would be at risk from him. However, an aggressive male is a huge risk in those spaces. It's not the penis that is the problem, it's the aggression. Same as you get females who are aggressive and they have no penis. I remember some really horrible assaults in school for example of girls attacking other girls. What about the celeb who punched the toilet attendant? It's not the penis that we need to fear, it's the aggressive people we need to worry about penis or no penis.

I've mentioned the penis 1 too many times I think...:)

Ok, just gonna make one more post about why I don't think the answer to defining a woman is so black and white, as people seem to be casting aspersions on my intelligence!

It's a tricky question to answer without getting into an intense philosophical discussion! I guess I'm just saying that I find it hard to pinpoint what makes someone 'a woman', - I'm not sure where I stand in essentialism is general, not just in relation to gender. For example, I know intersex and trans are not the same, but I'm not going to tell someone with a chromosomal disorder or ambiguous physical characteristics that they're not a woman. So I do find it to be quite complex.

I'm not saying my position is rock solid. Just that I find it confusing and complex. Anyway I wasn't planning to get drawn in, so going to switch off now. Sorry!

People don't engage because they are insulted - you might be OK with that but lots of people aren't.

I think very few people support the extreme trans activists. They are the vanguard of the movement and as such are extremists. This is common in revolutionary movements. Over time their rhetoric and influence will fade.
When political correctness started to become an issue there were suggestions of banning 'baa baa black sheep' that has mostly faded. The extreme of trans activism will fade.

Toilets - the idea women's toilets were a haven until trans people arrived is nonsense. Toilets have always been places where assaults happen. Women do attack women in toilets. Men who want to attack women have used toilets a law will not change that.

Biology. I think the idea that there are clear and defined biological differences in all people is wrong. There have always been people born with complicated issues where appearance does not match chromosomes. I am far from a medical expert but trying to insist on boy or girl for everyone is wrong. What's wrong with fluid anyway?

What I am clear on is being on the side of the Christian right makes me feel sick. These people will use your arguments to oppress women, no questions asked, no quarter given, they will not fade back into a responsible movement.

Interesting study I was reading yesterday...

academic.oup.com/cercor/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/cercor/bhr032

I might add I'm female and I have been assaulted myself by males and females, sexually, physically and verbally. I don't know if that's unusual, but because both sexes have been equally dangerous to me I don't fear the males more than the females. I trust neither if they are abusive. I've done a lot of therapy that has taught me the vast majority of people aren't abusive and can be trusted because they just want to carry on with their lives. However, I know that for many people their experiences have rightly put them on guard against being assaulted.

I think part of the issue is the layouts of toilets themselves because they are cubicles in a room that make users vulnerable to attack. If they were laid out differently like a row of cubicles like you get at a festival then the incidents of attack would probably reduce - abusers much prefer being hidden.

nachogazpacho You've missed the reality - predators use the 'I'm a woman' get out clause to gain access to those places.

Twogoats how is Ian Huntley relevant?
Despite his crimes he is entitled to medical privacy. Or should we deny him human rights?

Ian Huntley wants to trans to get out of the male prison. Its relevant because this is what is happening in the real world of self defined women.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/