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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 14:05

Legend, I'm still very early. It's tempting to put off thinking about this because it's stressful, I'm very ill, I'm worried about the baby as it's still such early days etc. But I know it's better to start making decisions now, because I either need to start preparing the dog for a baby, start looking for a very special home which could take ages, or satisfy myself that the unthinkable is the right option. I will also discuss this with professionals and I do have 7 months to make a decision.

OP posts:
Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 14:06

DorcasthePuffin: Unusual it may be, but she did ask. I wouldn't try for a baby knowing my dog could never cope with a baby and would probably have to be PTS. Sorry.

Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 14:06

Anyway, it's not my intention to stress a pregnant lady. I hope you find a suitable solution.

BigFatBollocks · 26/02/2017 14:08

Hi op, I don't know where you live but are you anywhere near Bourne End (near Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire)? There's a brilliant dog school there that specialise in rescue dogs. It's called Rossway Dog Training School. I'm sure, under the circumstances, if you're not local he would be able to advise you of someone near to where you live as he's very well connected in his profession.
Good luck!!!! 😊

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 14:09

So, baring in mind we had some trouble conceiving, you would have be wait until my dog naturally died in 3-4 years time? Placing me in my mid-late 30s and likely making it harder to conceive? As above, I have given up an awful lot for this dog without complaint, but this is too much of a sacrifice to make.

Rehoming him is not simple. Few people would want him, less would be suitable to take him and passing on a dog with so many issues is also my responsibility as his owner. Is it responsible to pass him on?

That's not to say I won't try. Obviously I don't want to put my dog to sleep at all. But rehoming himself turn out to be unrealistic

OP posts:
INeedNewShoes · 26/02/2017 14:09

The stress the dog would most likely experience with the arrival of a new family member and obviously if there was an incident has been touched on by a couple of pp but seems to be skimmed over by the critics.

This isn't just about what's best for the OP and the baby but also the dog. Yes, its absolutely awful to contemplate pts but I would have thought this could well be kinder to the dog than putting him through the potential distress of trying to look after both him and a baby.

baublegirl454 · 26/02/2017 14:10

If you are in London, I know a rescue (home-based, not kennels) in S London that takes 'problem dogs'. If it finds them unsuitable for rehoming, she will keep them. Please let me know if you would like the details. She has several fear reactive dogs who are fine with her & have a good life.

DJBaggySmalls · 26/02/2017 14:11

Its not unthinkable. At some point its what we have to do. Hopefully its at the end of a long and happy life, but not always.
There is no place for aggressive dogs in pet homes, in cities, around other people. There's no need for any angst over it.

BigFatBollocks · 26/02/2017 14:11

Emogis playing up!! Meant to be a smiley face!

Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 14:12

As I say, do what you can do. But yes, that is what I would have done.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 14:13

Hi bauble. Yes please can you PM the details. If nothing else, they might be a good person to discuss our situation with for some perspective.

Unfortunately, people who are willing to keep difficult dogs, often already have dogs. I don't think he'd cope, he'd need to go as an only dog - which is another factor making it even harder to place him.

OP posts:
stonecircle · 26/02/2017 14:15

Not read the full thread but have picked up a few comments about not being able to cope with the demands of a newborn and cope with the dog as well. But many people cope with the demands of a newborn and the demands of toddlers at the same time!

I think the op should see how things go - obviously being very careful, using gates etc. The dog is 8 and unlikely to live for more than a couple of years anyway. Putting a dog to sleep because it's become an inconvenience or for something it might do is pretty unpleasant.

Floralnomad · 26/02/2017 14:15

I know you need to plan but you do seem to be a bit premature as you might be surprised by the dogs reaction to the baby and it seems a bit unfair to at least not give him the chance , whilst obviously keeping the baby safe . If you do decide it's not going to work then I'd look at no kill rescues as there may well be someone who is as suitable a caretaker for this dog as you are . To me it just seems to a shame that just because you are pregnant and have anxiety that this dog through no fault of his own gets PTS. I had HG in my first pregnancy and it does make a lot of normal daily life seem a bit insurmountable , in our case it was a violent , unmanageable horse that we had to find a new carer for - but we managed it and she lived quite happily for about another 5/6 years with a lot of support from us .

baublegirl454 · 26/02/2017 14:17

Hi Lemondrop, sorry am on mobile and can't work out how to pm. They are called Furry Friends rescue in Old Coulsdon - Google or Facebook are your friend. The owner Emma is very good to talk to about any issues with dogs.

WhooooAmI24601 · 26/02/2017 14:17

OP we rescued a spaniel when DS2 was 4 months old. Stupidly I saw her sorry-looking face and thought she was too cute to say no to, with no thought to the amount of time, energy and sheer dedication a poorly-socialised and aggressive dog can be. She bit DS1 (he was 5 at the time) and we spent several days debating having her euthanised. Our vet and dog behaviourist worked with us, as well as our dog trainer at Bad Dog School and 6 years on she is incredible.

However lovely she might be now, she still bit a child. Not badly, but badly enough to leave marks on his body and make him cry. She's a knee-high spaniel without much venom in her bite and power in her jaws. As awful as it is, if she'd been a bigger, stronger breed the outcome could have been catastrophic. As it is she's never bitten since, she's great with the DCs and she's a lovely pet. But it has taken so much time, energy and money that I wouldn't be likely to have a rescue dog again.

It would be naive to imagine that a dog who already has issues is going to improve with the addition of a baby to your home. Putting animals to sleep isn't something you do lightly and of course you love your dog, but if he's a risk to a vulnerable newborn I'm not sure what other options there really are.

CornflakeHomunculus · 26/02/2017 14:21

You got him at 8 months - some of the behaviour is down to you, surely?!

It's really, really not that simple. Genetics plays a huge role in behaviour and temperament, it's how we've been able to create breeds which are hard wired to perform herding/retrieving/hunting behaviours for us. It doesn't matter how early someone gets a pup (and in the OP's case they were already at a massive disadvantage having got the dog after several critical stages of development), it's impossible to completely overwrite genetics. This (my link) is an excellent article on the subject written by a veterinary behaviourist.

The most recent post (my link) on the same blog is also well worth a read. It's about euthanasia in cases of behavioural issues.

OP I think the best thing you can do, along with talking to your own vet, is to get the opinion of a decent behaviourist. This (my link) is a list of organisations you can go through to find someone reputable who will use modern, science based methods. If you're on FB I also highly recommend joining this group (my link) and asking for recommendations for behaviourists in your area who specialise in dealing with aggression related issues.

(Any links appearing in this post other than those marked as my own have been inserted automatically by advertising software and may link to companies or products I would neither support nor recommend.)

PageStillNotFound404 · 26/02/2017 14:23

Trifleorbust the socialisation window for puppies closes at around four months, and any dog not sufficiently socialised by this time may well have a lifelong social handicap - as you would know, if you knew anything about dog behaviour and socialisation. This dog was screwed up and failed by humans long before the OP took him on, and she deserves credit for getting him this far, not excoriation.

Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 14:24

PageStillNotFound404: Ny being excoriating at all. Just stating my opinion, as asked.

PageStillNotFound404 · 26/02/2017 14:26

Not read the full thread but have picked up a few comments about not being able to cope with the demands of a newborn and cope with the dog as well. But many people cope with the demands of a newborn and the demands of toddlers at the same time!

Generally speaking, leaving a toddler and a newborn in the same room for a few seconds by accident doesn't run the risk of the baby having its face ripped open. Hmm

PageStillNotFound404 · 26/02/2017 14:27

Your opinion based on misinformation and lack of understanding of the actual facts of dog socialisation, however. Therefore a fairly worthless one.

RagingSquirrel · 26/02/2017 14:29

I couldn't trust an animal like that around my children, and moreover I couldn't trust myself especially when sleep deprived, harassed by baby/toddler etc to take all the necessary steps to always keep them apart.

Wouldn't the rehoming process itself exacerbate some of his issues and make it still harder to resettle him anywhere else?

In your shoes I think I would have a frank discussion with my vet - perhaps hearing what I fear is the inevitable conclusion, from a professional with no judgement on you will help you come to terms with what I think you need to do.

I really feel for you, you are clearly a responsible and loving owner.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 14:29

Thank you everyone who commented here. I've appreciated all the views. Some advice has been particularly helpful, be it from a mother perspective, a dog owner perspective or a dog professional view. It's all be really useful.

I will discuss this with the dog trainer and vet who know my dog well. I am happy to consider another behaviourist if I can find the right person and I think they can help (but at this late stage, I feel we're more at the point of managing who he is than managing to modify his existing behaviour much further).

I will carefully consider all three options and decide what is best for us and our dog. There is no easy answer, but it's been very helpful to thrash this out with you all. So thank you

OP posts:
Frouby · 26/02/2017 14:34

OP I haven't rtft apart from a few hysterical posts of 'don't kill the dog' etc. Mixed in with good realistic advice.

My dsis is in a similar situation. Her dog is a bullbreed. A big heavy girl. She is absolutely soft as a shiny shite with the family. But is frightened of strangers and other dogs and snaps in fear.

Dsis has been to behaviourists and trainers and manages the dog effectively as possible. She has 4 dcs, 1 with disabilities and they cope.

However they have to move house soon. As soon as they find a suitable property due to the additional needs of one of the dcs. Dsis has made the decision to PTS when that time comes. Mainly because the dog has only known their current home for the last 6 years and will not cope well with the change. The stress of moving will make her miserable and that could result in the dog biting someone.

The dog is very loved and no expense or time has been spared in making her life as good as possible. Because of her breed she isn't expected to live beyond 8 or 9. PTS is IMO the sensible thing to do.

Wrt your situation I would also chose PTS. It would be kinder to your dog I think. I know it's an awful thing to consider but the alternatives don't bear thinking about. Your dog might adore your new baby. My whippet did.

She really didn't like him when he was crawling around or toddling around and we had to introduce a crate. Not to keep her away from him but to give her a safe place she could retreat to. We did have 2 instances of her growling at him. Completly my fault.

She also snapped at my nephew. That was my (other) dsis's fault. But it made me realise it does take a split second for things to go absolutely horrendously wrong. I wasn't there at the time but have pieced together what happened. Not the dogs fault. Not the toddlers fault. The adults there should have managed the situation better. I wasn't there but if I had been it wouldn't have happened.

But anyway. You will probably manage with a baby. But toddlers and animals of any type are a difficult mix. I watch ds and ddog constantly. I have taught ds that he mustn't pester the dog or be rough or hurt her in any way. But he is 3 and at 1 or 2 he found it difficult to understand.

It's a very tough situation to be in.

Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 14:35

PageStillNotFound404: My opinion based on having seen a family member go through the exact same dilemma. Worthless or not, the view was asked for and given. You disagree - that's fine.

Adogcalledcat · 26/02/2017 14:37

I could've written this exact post 4 years ago. I really feel for you as I know how incredibly worrying it is.

Luckily our dog has continued to improve & having dog + dc hasn't been anywhere near as difficult as I thought it would be. Our dog was completely unsocialised after a very traumatic start in life, living in several homes before eventually being abandoned. He was absolutely terrified of all other dogs & used to lunge unpredictably as well.

We worked with a behaviouralist which helped a lot. He then suggested a doggy day care place to us as somewhere to send him during the day if we needed it. We were so sceptical & didn't think it would work at all but the lady who runs it worked 1-2-1 with our dog & then gradually introduced him. Within weeks he was running around happy as Larry with up to 30 other dogs! This meant that during the day dog could go off to daycare & I knew he'd be okay, giving us a bit of a break.

The daycare did home boarding as well so in the days after baby's arrival, our dog stayed there & came for visits to the house which increased each day.

Don't get me wrong, I was so scared when the dog was around but I forced myself to be calm as animals pick up on anxiety. The dog accepted the baby as part of the family & has shown nothing but love towards them since.

I now only use the daycare a few times a week & the others days we're all together. In lots of ways, having dc around has calmed our dog down remarkably. He has his own space where dc aren't allowed. We continue to use baby gates too but that's mainly when other children are in the house as that's one thing that still makes me feel very nervous.

I know your situation may not be the same as this but I just wanted to share a story where things have worked out. I really hope it works out for you too.