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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:47

I do understand that Bert. That's why I wouldn't dream of putting him through a rescue centre (even if they could help him). I am also aware that I am responsible for passing on his problems. If we cannot keep him and a suitable private rehome cannot be found, I realise PTS is an option.

I once had it said to me that euthanasia is an ethical issue but not a welfare issue. I will agonise over it, I will have to live with it. I know the dog will not suffer and will not know what happened, and it may even be the least stressful option for him. Still doesn't make it any easier to consider though.

OP posts:
frayedbuspass · 26/02/2017 11:47

I think you have to think about levels of risk and severity of consequences. So what I mean is, I buy a new mobile phone and decide not to insure it. Although the risk of losing it or breaking it is pretty high, the consequences...having to pay off a contract or buy a new phone outright...would be annoying but something I could do without too much pain. On the other hand, I insure my house against destruction by fire. The chances of this happening are a lot smaller than losing my phone, but I couldn't handle the consequence of having to re-build my house without an insurance payment.

So, while it's difficult to gauge the risk of your dog hurting or dare I say killing your baby - maybe it's very likely, maybe it's extremely unlikely -the consequence of it happening is so completely and utterly unacceptable, that I don't see you having a choice other than to take out the "best insurance" available; that is, to remove the dog from your home in whatever way you can.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:50

Hi Husky. I don't want money for him, I didn't explain that well. I just think Gumtree free to a good home advertisements tends to drawn the worst people and possibly even dog fighters etc. They'd love to chuck my boy into the ring for entertainment.

I don't want money for him, and I would also continue paying his medical insurance for the rest of his life, if we have to rehome him.

OP posts:
Tamberlane · 26/02/2017 11:52

To the person who asked above....Of course vets will pts an aggressive 40 kg animal if their owner requests it....
Also who do you think puts down the animals that are not adopted in the pounds?plenthy of those are healthy young animals. Who do you think supervised the foot and mouth kill outs? Vets...because being a vet involves euthanising animals for multiple reasons not just poor health. And euthanasia is often not as bad as many alternatives.

OP your dog is not rehomeable...he sounds like a very dangerous animal and you have done incredibly well to manage him so well for so long.....but realistically his and your quality of life is not going to be good only the baby arrived.He wont be safe to be near a newborn if hes got high prey drive so will need to be locked away from his people and their new baby..and will get very limted walks as he can be walked safely with a pram.... could you live with yourself if anything did happen?even if you get through the baby years you cannot have other peoples children in your home with this dog.

Theres a lot worse thing can happen to a dog.. then having injection of sedation to take away the fear while your there to comfort him after....and then an overdose of anaesthetic while hes already sedated and wont notice the needle while his family with him to let him know its ok...a lot worse.

fc301 · 26/02/2017 11:52

Norland do you feel as strongly about the safety & wellbeing of human babies?

nachogazpacho · 26/02/2017 11:53

@Elspeth how did you get him rehomed? Was it through the rescue shelter?

ElspethFlashman · 26/02/2017 11:57

Yes it was through the original rescue. They had a behaviouralist so they were the ones I rang. They were brilliant and drove to pick him up that evening and had a big chat. The speed of the whole thing was traumatic but I have to confess the next morning I woke up to a mixture of grief and relief. The liberation of being able to out the baby down on the floor to change his nappy! Looking back, the first month of his life was grindingly stressful because of the dog. Sad

Their intention was to rehome him to a house in the countryside with an older person as he was a good guard dog and was really very snuggly and affectionate. Just had a high prey drive.

ILikeBeansWithKetchup · 26/02/2017 11:57

Tamberlane - no need to be shirty : I was genuinely just asking as I never heard of it, si all. OP explained much more kindly to me.

I genuinely didn't think animals in 'pounds' existed in the UK. I thought we had shelters and adoption charities who took dogs whether they felt they could be rehomed or not - and that's what I would look for if it were my pet. I personally couldn't bear the idea of putting a healthy pet to sleep (I did say pet btw if you red my PP, not animal from a farm, not stray)

But many people with far better experience of dogcare than I have have explained why PTS is a kinder option so I get their pov now.

specialsubject · 26/02/2017 11:58

I wonder if those so against euthanasia would agree either to take this dog or pay its costs for the rest of its life in a shelter?

Easy to judge from a distance...

As far as I know in the UK we value people more than dogs.

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 26/02/2017 11:59

All the people suggesting killing the dog, perhaps you could explain just how you arrived at your decision to give such advice and why you're qualified to give such advice?

I've kept giant breeds, including fear aggressive rescues, for many years. I know the amazing joy of teaching a damaged dog to trust. That joy comes with a massive amount of responsibility for their behaviour towards other people's kids. I know that a decent owner, eight years in, has done as much as they can to train their dog.

I know what it takes to hold back a frightened 40/50kg dog when he thinks his survival is dependant on killing someone else's dog. I know that can't be done with one hand and another on a buggy.

I know that after a good life, a painless death isn't even nearly the worst thing that can happen to a dog.

Haggisfish · 26/02/2017 11:59

We had a rescue dog. She was lovely, with similar issues. One day, she gave a warning snap to 13 month old dd and caught her on cheek, drawing blood. Had to have her pts. It's really hard but you'd never forgive yourself if the dog hurt a child.

Norland · 26/02/2017 12:02

None taken Lemondrop I'm not a fan of Milan, I just posted that link as it was the first one to come up with a search of new baby and family dog.

I'm a parent and dog-owner (have had dogs all my life, 50+) so have had the same conundrum; however my viewpoint is somewhat coloured by my parents always being slightly guilty about have the family pet euthanised (put to sleep/PTS is rather twee) when I was 4.

I wish you all the best in finding a happy solution.

FrenchLavender · 26/02/2017 12:03

I think you've done your very best with him and the only thing, very sadly, is to admit defeat and have him euthanised. He's an unhappy, neurotic and stressed dog with aggression and domination issues. He probably isn't going to change now and maybe only has four more years in him anyway. There is no way you can risk having him around your child or walking him when your child is with you. You either put measures in place so that he never needs to come face to face with your baby or you give him a kiss and say goodbye. Trying to re-home him to someone equipped with the time, skill and patience to give him what he needs will be nigh on impossible.

Cherrysoup · 26/02/2017 12:04

I feel for you, I have a dog that sounds exactly like yours. Walking him is very stressful. Re-homing/giving him away is out of the question. I think I'd go for the very careful interactions/introductions. I think anyone else would have sent ours to a rescue centre.

Fingalswave · 26/02/2017 12:04

Husky's post has reminded me that my mildly fear aggressive rescue doesn't react aggressively to noise so much (although he is reactive to noise) it is movement that upsets him more, so sudden jerky movements or people leaning over or across him or towards him without warning, or rolling around or falling suddenly. So this could be a problem with an energetic toddler even under close supervision.

The point about visiting DC made by a pp is a good one too. My friend is a veterinary nurse and she says quite a few dog attacks occur when step children come in to the house on alternative weekly or fortnightly visits, or when friends visit.

Good luck with your decision op, it's such a hard one. Speaking to your vet sounds like a very good idea as they know your dog well but objectively, and they will have come across similar situations.

DailyFailFuckwits · 26/02/2017 12:05

I had a difficult dog when i was pregnant, there was no way i would rehome him. I managed the situation. I kept him seperate from the baby, used a child gate and to be honest he spent more time outside or in the porch/conservatory than he had before. I managed to walk him with the baby in a sling, luckily we are rural so other dogs were less of a problem, but even so, i could turn tail and leg it away whilst shouting 'call your dog off', even with a baby attached. Or, if there are too many loose dogs to make that viable, walk the dog while your husband has the baby. Remember, dogs don't live forever, mine died at age 10 which, love him though i did, was quite a relief. So, if your dog is 8 now, hopefully he will be older and ready to sleep more (out of the way) as the child gets older/more mobile. Just remember...never, ever risk baby and dog meeting unsupervised, if necessary have the dog at least 2 shut doors away from the baby...im case he gets through the first one, (husband hopeless at remembering to close doors behind him!). Or could you build him a nice kennel outside, i used to comfort myself that even though my dogs life was not as cosy as pre baby, he was much better off than living in a rescue centre for the rest of his life.

MrsTwix · 26/02/2017 12:06

No advice really but thinking of you.

Perhaps post on a dog rescue forum?

archersfan22 · 26/02/2017 12:07

I have worked with animals for years and I found it quite stressful managing my newborn with our cat who had been the centre of attention previously (used to have his own bedroom...). I always kept doors shut so cat and baby were never unattended. My son is nearly three and I still never leave them unattended in a room together. This was stressful enough when baby was tiny and I was exhausted etc but I really can't imagine dealing with your situation.

You sound very sensible and realistic about your dog's behaviour, and if anything owners tend to downplay their dog's behaviour problems. Therefore, from what you have written, it would not be fair on anybody (especially your dog) to attempt to rehome him. Non-pts charities won't take him because he isn't a good candidate for rehoming.

Therefore you have two options:

  1. Keep him completely separate from baby (eg if you have space, by building a large kennel and run in the garden, you can get heated beds etc). Then the question is whether his quality of life (and yours/your husband's) is going to be reasonable.
  2. Euthanasia. I understand that this is a very distressing option (have had to make that decision myself). But I have seen so much suffering caused by owners who were unable to put their pet first and make that decision, and I wish people were less critical about it as an option. Obviously there are situations where it is not appropriate but this is really not one of them.
    As others have said, at this size and 8 years old he is very likely to get significant health problems soon.

Sadly, as you know there isn't a magic solution to this involving him going to live in a lovely home somewhere else, so you need to choose the least bad option. I'm so sorry you are having to make this decision while feeling hormonal and ill. I wish you all the best.

Mummyoflittledragon · 26/02/2017 12:11

Brother and sils dog gave a warning snap to my dd at 15 months. Puncture wound just above the eye, which scarred. They chose to keep the dog and have a baby. They had a baby gate and trained their son to stay away from the dog. Not something I would have chosen. However, it can work. Potentially.

Greenfingeredfun · 26/02/2017 12:11

Please think very carefully about having such a dog around your baby. I hope to god you won't be yet another one of those story's on the news Sad

CheerfulMuddler · 26/02/2017 12:14

I don't know much about dogs, so I don't know how the dog will react to the baby - although I've been interested to see how many people on this thread have said they have similar dogs and it's been fine.

I feel like there are two issues here - will the dog be a risk to the baby and how will you manage to meet the dog's needs - walks etc - with a newborn?

I can't really answer the first question, but I do think if you do decide to keep the dog, you're going to need help. (And it sounds like you need some help now anyway.)

I'd look right now at finding a teenager or an unemployed person or someone like that who is able to be properly introduced to your dog and give him the 1:1 attention they need. Pay them a decent wage to take the dog for two long walks a day for the remainder of your pregnancy and for longer if you decide to keep the dog.

Babies are harder work than you think they're going to be. 'Difficult' babies are harder than that. You need this as a bare minimum, and tbh, it sounds like your DH needs a bit of a break.

AtHomeDadGlos · 26/02/2017 12:14

Without a doubt keep the dog, worst case scenario he kills your new child.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 12:15

We built a kennel in the garden for him when having the house renovated, with the idea es be happier out there than being shut in a room with a load of strangers banging and shouting. Unfortunately he hated the kennel and it's now used as a shed! He didn't like being shut outside, thought we were inside without him and would sit at the gate and cry - even in the rain he wouldn't go inside! We gave up pretty quickly.

He is ok with being shut away upstairs, even if we are in the house. He's got used to this over the years when visitors have come. So if we go for separation, he'd have to be inside or he'd be miserable. Obviously they increase the risk of accidental mixing through error though

OP posts:
Blossomdeary · 26/02/2017 12:16

You have a problem aggressive dog - you have made the decision to have a baby. You cannot have both. Having made the decision to have a baby, this implies that you will not have the dog, which must go, by whatever means you think is the most humane.

MatildaTheCat · 26/02/2017 12:17

Talk to your vet and take their advice. I feel it's unlikely to be anything other than PTS but it will be a considered,professional view.

It's possible you could make this work but it really will be hard work for you and dh if you chose that route. And also quite possible that your dog will become more anxious and jealous as he sees your priorities change and feels pushed out.

Although the risk to your child is probably very small ( don't the vast majority of dog attacks happen to people who thought their dogs were not dogs at all but furry people who wouldn't hurt a fly?) there is some risk.

It sounds as if you still have several months to weigh this up. Get advice,consider doing some graded exposure and be realistic that you may still need to take the hardest decision. Well done for giving this troubled boy such a wonderful life.

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