Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

[Lemondrop09]

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

Oh this made me cry (had my big dog PTS six months ago, for old age and illness, so not the same at all, but still affected me). There's no easy answer. I feel for you - it's so hard to make a decision based on the unknown. You don't yet know what it's going to be like to deal with a newborn, so you are basing things on how it is now dealing with your dog. Stairgates, btw, aren't an easy answer, most big dogs can get over them if sufficiently motivated... and would the baby be a motivation? You don't know.
I'd say, with a heavy heart, that having dog PTS would be the only way forward. He's demanding and difficult, and a baby is twice that. Factor in trying to keep them apart (and even the loveliest, sweetest dog can't be left alone with a baby), and you'll drive yourself mad.

I have a rescue dog with some aggression issues. His are entirely aimed at other animals (he loves all people), but I was certainly nervous about bringing home twins. As it happens, he is lovely with them. They are 15 months now and he is very good about just moving away when they enter his space. We give him lots of praise and we obviously keep a very close eye on all interactions. So, I think it can be done, but obviously all dogs are different. There is a Facebook group called Reactive Dogs (UK), which I would really recommend. There are licensed behaviourists and lots of people with experience in the group. If you posted your situation, I'm sure they would be able to give you some useful advice and ideas on how to proceed.

Can you hire someone to take the dog for a couple of hours every day? Start now to see how it goes.

Maybe get a 'doll' or use a pillow or something. Keep the dog away and carry your doll around with you all day. Only let dog out when DH is there or DH takes the doll. It may give you an idea of what it will be like to keep the dog away constantly and also see how your dog reacts to being kept away all day, every day as it's different to being away while you're at work or when you has visitors.

You said 'he's nearly always fine' this isn't good enough, you really can't chance it.

I really feel for you OP, it's an awful situation to be in.

I had 3 dogs. 2 "normal" and 1 as your dog is. He was very gobby and blustery but had never actually bitten but I made myself sick worrying about the exact situation you are in.

We kept all 3 in the end and when baby arrived we took things slowly introducing the dogs to the baby and as things would have it the nervous one took to her the most. He absolutely adored her.

However, as someone above as said the baby took up all our time and walking a reactive dog with a buggy was impossible so we knew it was cruel to keep him with no excersize. We were very lucky in that we found an experienced rural home to take him (gold dust).

My heart goes out to you I know exactly how hard it is .

What's his prey drive like? The biggest concern with a new baby is that the dog views it as a cat/squirrel whatever. It squeaks and squirms and that triggers the prey drive. That's the usual scenario with dogs mauling tiny babies. If your dog is high prey drive and goes after cats etc with a vengeance I do think you have to find him another home. Baby gates can be got round and in a sleep deprived state you may not shut one.

Do you have a friend with a baby? If you do I'd muzzle him keep on a very tight lead with at least one other adult in the room and let him slowly get closer to the baby. But you're going to need a really good friend for that one! How does he react when you walk near play parks? Kids on scooters? Etc?

Does he resource guard? Can you take food off him? Possessive of his bed? Those are the issues with older babies/children. If a toddler had him cornered how would he react?

I'd probably be inclined to at least give him a chance with the baby if you're going to have enough adults to support/help you. But I would only put the baby down in a Moses basket etc behind a shut door and a baby gate.

When DC4 was born DH left her in her Moses basket in the kitchen with our very bomb proof 11 year old 60kg dog. He is very high prey drive but is on his 4th kid and in no way sees baby's as prey. A neighbourhood cat decided to come through our cat flap and all hell broke loose in the kitchen with our cats and dog flying about. DH in his panic threw himself over the bannister of the stairs to get back into the kitchen faster. Baby completely fine. The dog never even bumped the basket but it was a HUGE mistake on DHs part to leave the room with the baby unattended.

Not really answering the question but I honestly never knew you could put a pet to sleep if it isn't unwell (other than obviously when a dog has attacked as we sometimes see in the news; this dog hasn't). Would a vet actually do that? I find that faintly unethical, and certainly sad.

That said, I wouldn't risk a baby's life. And I can understand you not wanting to risk seeing how it goes.

Not obviously quite the same thing but my previous cat was terrible around anyone male , apart from my DH. She scratched d a vet's eyeball once and was cat non grata at the vets. They had a note on screen that said WATCH THOSE CLAWS!!

My anxiety definitely transferred to her when I had DH1 and this is what would worry you. My cat's response was to sulk and hide away and become a pointless pet, poor thing. My DCs never, therefore, has any sort of relationship with her and I tended to keep them apart. Poor cat eventually was PTS as she developed a horrible brain tumour. We now have two cats who are gentle and cuddly because they were socialised to children as kittens.

I empathise with your anxiety 0 but I think you will be very concerned after the baby is born. To be honest any dog around a baby can be dangerous and at least you aren't complacent, unlike in some of the tragic cases you read about, I very much doubt you would veer leave your baby alone with your dog..

I'd at least attempt to rehome...

You sound as though you have the patience, foresight and understanding of your dog to make this work. We had to keep one of our dogs (over excitable spaniel cross) completely separate from our 11 month old for 8+ months. He would be in his crate in the living room with us or the other side of a baby gate. No aggression issues, he is just over exuberant, would lick her, knocker her over by accident and would probably trample on her if it meant getting to a bluebottle flying past (he is obsessed with them...). Even now they only interact through a stairgate if DH or I are not right by her side.

It has been very doable. Walking 2 dogs with a pram is rarely doable so DH and I tag team - 1 has baby, other has dogs - for walks. DD loves both dogs and has learnt to pat and not pull hair but tbh the dogs have very little love for her, it is the adults that walk and feed them and us they greet etc.

You have to be prepared for a situation where the newborn takes pretty much all your time and energy. That there won't be anything left for him. And how will he cope then?

I just can't see how it would work.

Just read my own post - I did not 'have DH1' - that obviously should say DS1...

Have you had your dogs thyroid function tested? By coincidence I saw an episode of 'Its Me or the Dog' the other day with a dog who's demeanour sounds incredibly similar to yours, when tested it transpired he had issues with thyroid function - seemingly this is common in anxious dogs. While rhe aggressive side of his behaviour still required strong management (controlled muzzled introductions etc), once the thyroid regulating medication took effect the dogs anxiety levels improved dramatically. Just something to consider.

I have a fear-aggressive dog. If anything were to happen to me to prevent him being cared for properly, he'd be PTS. My DH is too disabled to manage him solo and I couldn't risk him ending up in the wrong hands. That's not arrogance that I'm the only one who could ever deal with him, it's pragmatism. Generally speaking, the sort of person who can cope with a more-than-usually challenging dog already has one.

OP, I really empathise. Fear-aggressive dogs are bloody exhausting to live with. While I do think that with a good behaviourist it is possible to introduce a baby safely, especially in a case where the problem is fear of strangers rather than, say, resource guarding, it sounds as though the sheer logistics of pregnancy/new baby + difficult dog are going to be overwhelming. There's also the stress that a new baby is likely to cause him. IME F-A dogs need more structure and routine than average, and the disruption of a new baby is likely to blow that to hell.

I would be thinking of it in these terms: you've given him seven years he almost certainly wouldn't have had otherwise. You succeeded where some professionals admit they would have failed. You have three choices now

1. struggling on with a risk to your baby, increased stress for you and a likelihood his behaviour may regress
2. giving him an uncertain future in rescue, either living out the rest of his life in kennels or potentially ending up in the hands of someone who doesn't understand him - either way likely to end up being PTS after a lot of stress and unhappiness
3. PTS with dignity, knowing only kindness, love and in familiar secure surroundings

In your situation, speaking as the owner of a fear-aggressive dog myself, I'd be leaning towards #3. And no blame or flaming here - just admiration for having given this difficult unsettled boy 7 long years of the best care he could have hoped for.

Put him to sleep ?

Honestly some of you .

Ticketsto, no the dog hasn't possibly bitten yet but that seems to be down to good management by op and her husband, the trauma of moving to a new home and not so vigilant caring owners could be the straw that breaks the camel back.

It's just not a risk I would myself being willing to risk, I know I could not live with myself if something went wrong after I rehomed him, and people are very good at talking the talk and convincing people they are the right ones to take on a rescue dog but when the reality bites of living with a dog that has to be carefully managed some soon get weary and rehome the dog onto someone else but omitting a lot of much needed info because they want shot of the dog and then things can go terribly terribly wrong, once the op lets go of that lead and passes the dog onto to someone else she loses control of her beloved dogs life, and to me having the dog put to sleep in the owners loving embrace is a far kinder more humane thing to do than to put that dog back into harms way into a life which he cannot cope with and is unhappy in.

Oysterbabe - I think advertising the dog free to a good home would be incredibly irresponsible. It's also a fast track to having dogs end up in fighting pits or used for bait - or if they haven't been spayed, then ending up in a puppy farm or backyard breeder. You have no way of knowing whether it is genuinely a good home - and that's before you get into the fact that OP's dog has complex behavioural needs.

OP, my heart goes out to you. But I think in your heart of hearts you know that there is one way forward - and that is to PTS. I say that as a dog lover with two rescues snoozing next to me, and as someone who has spent thousands of pounds on dogs with complex medical needs. I also volunteer for an independent rescue and have fostered in the past, so please don't think that I say this lightly.

You have given your lovely boy 7 wonderful years. You have loved him, cared for him and given him everything possible. Trust me when I say it is rare to find people who aren't foster carers or rescue shelters, who are willing to provide that level of commitment to a troubled dog. Your baby is going to take up a huge amount of your time. Even if your dog is completely happy with the new arrival, you've mentioned that he needs a lot of attention. How likely is it that you are going to be able to continue to give him the level of care that he is used to and needs?

Practically speaking it's going to be almost impossible to try and re-home him with someone who will continue to care for him as you have done. Sadly there are so many 'ordinary' dogs who can't find a forever home, so the ones who have medical or behavioural needs tend to end up as sponsor dogs at my rescue (no kill policy), or in others then they will be PTS. The volume of dogs that need space in the shelter makes it a very difficult balancing act.

I honestly think that the kindest and best thing that you could do for him, is to arrange for your vet to visit at home and have him slip gently away whilst you are cuddling him, safe and loved in the environment that he has known since he was a puppy.

Its worth trying. The baby will be part of the family that he is bonded with. As you said time, barriers and lots of food.
No dog is safe with any baby and no one with a dog can ever be certain that their's is safe. You have the advantage of being very aware of the possibilities. Most children are hurt by dogs that no one ever considered a risk!
Speaking personally I could never euthanize a healthy animal because they were unwanted for whatever reason. Give him to the Dogs' Trust if you must, but at least him give a chance of a longer happy life.

Another thing to consider is that you're likely to meet other mums with young kids, from babies upwards, who might naturally come over for play dates. To be brutally honest I wouldn't trust the type of dog you describe with unfamiliar babies/ toddler. Shutting a dog away when they came over might also create resentment and unexpected aggression later. It would add a strain on you when perhaps tired and sleep deprived to always remember to keep the dog away from your baby. It would be easy on occasion to leave a stair gate open when tired distracted.

Sorry you're in this dilemma but please feel comforted by what you have given your dog so far.

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. When you have your newborn your feelings may change to your dog. When my DD was newborn I found myself suddenly disliking my much loved moggies due to the cat fur, jumping around, sitting on any blankets left out. Even though you love your pet as part of the family, it is not nice but feelings can change when a baby arrives. We just got on with it with the cats, and we still have them now (still much loved!) but if it was stressful with a pair of soft house cats I cannot imagine coping with an unpredictable rescue dog. You have given your dog the best life he could have considering his start in life, I would be trying everything I could to get him safely rehomed and if you sadly end up pts you can hold your head high knowing you treated your dog to a good life and showed him love.

I haven't read all the replys but just wanted to give you my perspective. I grew up with a dog who had very similar issues to yours. He didn't like other dogs, didn't like people outside of the family and generally was not an easy pet with the potential to be snappy and aggressive. However he absolutely adored me from the moment I came home from the hospital. He was incredibly protective of me and there were no issues at all. I'm not saying your situation will work out like this for definite, however I wouldn't consider having him put to sleep until you see how he reacts to a baby. Realistically any dog has the potential to be aggressive and harm a baby or toddler. I have two dogs of my own and am due in a couple of weeks, both although seemingly fine with children won't be left unattended with the baby at all and my DH will have to take over the walking duties as I won't be able to manage two with a pray anyway. I think it's one of those things you can't really decide until the baby is here and you see how it goes xxx

Do you think you can manage it for a little while? I know it's really horrible to think about but he is 8 so is unlikely to live for more than a few more years, could you cope until the inevitable happens?

Are you offering to take the OP's dog then RachelRagged?

My sister has a dog with problems like this. Once she's used to someone she's adorable and perfectly fine. It took a while for me and the dog to get along as I'm wary of dogs as it is so we weren't a good mix! There are probably ten people who the dog is safe to be around.

I'm pregnant and I know that baby and my sister's dog are going to have to be kept apart.

The problem is, you can't 'see how it goes' because if it goes badly (and one day it most likely will because you can't coach a baby/toddler not to do something that startles the dog) you are likely to find out by the dog going for the baby which will definitely have negative impact, ranging from just scaring the hell out of everyone down to absolutely disastrous consequences.

You can't take that risk and its not realistic to think that you can keep them apart.

Its an awful awful situation and I really feel for you but I do think you know really that you can't keep your dog.

*Rachelragged" believe me, there are worse things than being pts. Personally, I would favour that end for my dog rather than them living in a no kill shelter, however good and devoted the staff were.

Have you tried to find a dog walker that you can pay a bit extra to take him out 1 on 1? If you had someone to walk him that would take the immediate pressure off. You could then try keeping him separate from the baby and see how that works for all of you.

Tbh, and I say this as a dog lover, I would PTS a dog with these issues rather than rehome. Rehoming risks an uncertain future and him being abused or neglected. Dogs have no concept of death and letting him go whilst he is still happy and loved would be a final kindness if you can't make it work with him at home

Thank you so much everybody for the replies. I value every one of them. I'm struggling to keep up with the post so sorry if I missed your question but I am reading this thread carefully

1. Sadly his prey drive is terrible. Squirrels, cats. So yes, that is a concern even if he was ok with a baby, I do think he'd at least struggle not to get overexcited with a squeaking toddler

1. Yes we did have his thyroid tested. Was almost hoping it was that so medication might help! But his thyroid is fine

1. I think the hardest part is that there is a chance he could be ok. He's fine with noise, he's ok with being separated around the house to some extent, he's very good with people he knows. I do think there's a good chance he could be fine with the baby. That whet makes it sooooo hard. It would be so much easier to make the decision if it was as simple as there was no way on Earth he could cope with the stress of a baby.

1. That said, I'm very aware of the implications if this does wrong. Dog will be put to sleep anyway but a child will have been hurt (or worse) first. I am worried about how much extra stress this will add to a difficult period.

1. He doesn't really resource guard. I've had to take things out of his mouth (for example he picked up a cooked bone) and he's let me do it. That said, I've never pushed him either because it was unfair.

1. Yes, vets put to sleep for reasons aside from health. Ethically, I think most vets would consider his behaviour was severe enough for euthanasia. (Incidentally I once came home from the vets with a free gerbil after the owner paid to have it pts because she didn't want it. Vet gave it to me instead!)

What a horrible situation for you, OP. I don't know anything about dogs, but I do know about babies, and I would caution you against thinking you can come up with a structured solution in advance. You may have a baby that naps and feeds to schedule, and sleeps through early. Or you may have a baby like my firstborn, who woke on the hour every hour round the clock for nearly a year, would not be put down when awake, and carried on being very clingy and attention-seeking all through the toddler years. I was exhausted, consumed, and I couldn't have looked after a goldfish, let alone a dog.

That may not be what happens to you. But it may be, so factor it into your thinking. Also: be wary of plans that rely on you being aware and on the case all the time (always remembering to close stairgates etc). When you're sleep deprived it can be hard to remember how to spell your own name, and I think it would be very easy to stumble downstairs for a bottle and accidentally let the dog through.

Best of luck.