Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

[Lemondrop09]

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

Please don't post him free to a good home on gum tree, there are all sorts of crackerjacks out there who do hellish things to animals.

All the people suggesting killing the dog, perhaps you could explain just how you arrived at your decision to give such advice and why you're qualified to give such advice?

As I have previously said, I am a dog owner, experienced dog rescue volunteer and have quit a few years of dog fostering under my belt. One of my rescues has some behavioural issues - not anywhere near the scale of the OP's dog - but I have to contend with a high prey drive and a fear of other dogs, new situations and people. It is not easy to manage and walking/going places can be very stressful.

I also have practical experience of being in the rescue's position when a dog like this comes in. The dog is invariably stressed, bewildered and miserable. Often they pine - sometimes they recover, but the extreme cases don't. Their behavioural issues mean that re-homing them is virtually impossible. Good rescues will want a good match - and that means something that works for both the dog AND the adopter. As I have already said, the number of people who would take on a dog like this and actually stick with it, are incredibly rare. We have a hard enough time re-homing healthy, young and stable dogs - what chance to you think OP's dog stands? And that's before we get into the realms of being comfortable, as a rescue, about the risks they would take in re-homing her dog - who has known and severe behavioural issues. Do you fancy paying the shelter's legal fees if something goes wrong and the dog hurts someone and a lawsuit lands on the doorstep?

An honourable mention of the RSPCA. FYI the rescue I support takes dogs that have come from the most horrendous circumstances and in terrible condition. The RSPCA is sadly not anywhere near as helpful as their advertising would have you believe. There are some wonderful and dedicated people working in the branches whose hands are tied by the corporate policy; my rescue is stuffed with cruelty cases that the RSPCA wouldn't even come out and look at, let alone put a hand in their pocket towards the thousands in vet fees that we incur in treating these cases. Anyway, rant over.

Yes, ours wouldn't stay outside in a kennel either. Total waste of money. Actually the whole garden was wasted!

But realistically the dog would end up living the rest of its life upstairs whilst real life went on downstairs without him. That's crap for everyone.

You have a dog for this amount of time, a baby is on its way and people tell you to KILL your innocent dog? As a dog-lover I am frankly appalled at this cruel suggestion.

People go on and on and on about Brexit, trans rights etc, what about animal rights to erm...live? Especially when they were there first, before the baby! And they've done nothing wrong.

Please, other posters, if you commit to a dog (before you reproduce), think: do I envisage myself being able to keep both? If you might let the dog down (i.e. put it down), please don't get the dog in the first place. You take on an animal, it is your responsibility.

I'd be thinking ahead a bit it when my child is maybe 3 or 4 and starting to have friends round to play, it could get really quite difficult to keep your dog separate. Kids can open safety gates and doorhandles, even just a couple of kids can be loud, their movements can be quick and unpredictable.

You could probably manage your dog and a baby now, but a few years down the line you might be managing your three year old, their pal, and maybe another baby of your own. I would think it would be impossible to keep your dog safe and calm in that sort of situation.

You sound like a caring and responsible dog owner, your dog is lucky to have you. Sorry you are facing such an awful decision.

We were in a very similar situation to you. Our dog had the same behaviour traits as yours, but he had bitten my husband once, about 5 years before our baby was born.
We lasted 6 months with the dog and baby. It was a very stressful time for both me and the dog. He built up a (wrong) negative association between the baby crying and me, so that he began to guard the baby when it cried. Was a fucking nightmare. My husband refused to acknowledge the issue, despite a behaviourist saying the dog was too stressed, and I nearly left him over it! It took him to witness the dog try to attack me (luckily husband was there to stop the attack) when I went to tend to my crying son, for him to agree to rehome.
We managed to get the dog into a rescue centre, but they PTS after 7 months as our dog became very ill through stress living in kennels and was impossible to rehome. I wish we had PTS as I feel so guilty him living 7 months of hell in kennels.
Those 6 months ruined my enjoyment of my new baby and caused the poor dog undue stress.
There was a lot of wishful thinking on our parts, but we had never managed to change his behaviour before the baby, so it wasn't going to miraculously improve after. Dogs with the kind of behaviour traits you describe are highly anxious, a baby will not improve that.

Ilikeketchup I was shirty because you implied only an unethical vet would do so and il freely admit that got my back up.apologies if i was blunt
But my point is that is not the case.ethics and euthanasia are n odd mix but its not completely unethical to pts an animal who has nowhere to go.... healthy though it may be...whats the alternative? Life in a cage with maybe a walk a day with a string of different volunteers? and yes hundreds if not thousands of dogs are still euthanised in the uk for that reason alone...because nobody wants them...healthy and friendly or not...
I cannot tell you how many "healthy" animals I have put down for a variety of different reasons because I stopped counting years ago when I realised how damaging it was to my mental health. I can describe the first 20 or so in graphic detail if that will help you deal with the ethics...because il never forget having to do it....but you literally cannot save them all...Even with rescues helping to ease tbe burden...and thank god for them because without them the number would be much much higher.
Its not an uncommon scenario sadly we just dont like to talk about it because you are judged as a murderer for euthanising a healthy animal by a large amount of people.....dont believe me...look up the case of the vet on taiwan who killed herself over the same issue.

I do not consider euthanising an aggressive animal in any way unethical for the record. Mental health is also health.plus being rehomed for this dog would likely cause more trauma unless the owners are very lucky with whoever takes him...with jaded eyes again id highly recommend pts rather then rehoming in a case like this...you have no control over your dog once hes been moved on and people lie....the vast majority of pet owners are not equiped or capable of dealing with a 40kg fear aggressive older dog kindly...there are a lot worse situations he could end up in then pts with his family around him.

What do you think she should do then Ubertasha? Aside from building a time machine.

I have been raised with big dogs. I think you can only know once the baby is there. The baby will have your smell. The dog will either consider the baby as part of the family or as something to play/chase.
Incidentally we never had trouble with my dad's big dogs but my cousin's Border Collie attacked my sister as he treated children like he would sheep and would bite.
I think if if doesn't work out PTS sounds like the best option.

For the exercising, my dad used to run with the dogs. I have also seen people cycling with them. Could that be an option?
How much exercising does the dog need? At 8 he is going to start slowing down (I think my dad's latest big dog stopped wanting to run with him at about that age).

Thanks Ubertasha, that exactly the type of sensitive response I was hoping for.....

I've already explained that I took the dog on expecting to be able to help him. I didn't anticipate that we'd still have problems seven years down the line. I've done everything to help him.

I'm 33, we've struggled for this baby, and I can't put my life on hold for another 4+ years until my dog dies, only to find I can't conceive because of my age. I've given up so much for this dog over the years, but I'm not willing to sacrifice having a family. Despite it being very hard, i've kept him, worked with him, done so much more than the vast majority of the public would do.

I think you're being very harsh to indicate that I'm being selfish and irresponsible.

You have to face facts. Your dog has had an extra 8 years with you. He wont live forever, one day he will make that final trip to the vets. Whether thats to day or in 3 years time is irrelevant.

The thing that concerns me most about your thread is that you have seen many behavioural trainers but you dont mention having completed any obedience training with your dog. You dont seem to have much control over him. After 8 years of training he shouldnt still be lunging at people, he should look to you for instructions on what to do.

The stair gates are irrelevant. When you introduce a baby to a dog, one person is in charge of the baby and another is in charge of the dog.

Wrap a teddy or doll in a blanket and treat it as a baby from now on. the doll comes first all the time.In a weeks time leave it alone in a room with him. Its ok for him to show curiosity, and sniff it.
If at any time he tries to pull it from your arms or tear it apart you take him to the vet and have him PTS.

Wow Tralalala, that sound traumatic. I'm so sorry you went through all that

Ignore Ubertasha and her extra special point of view.

Only a total loon would think that we have to sew our wombs shut the minute we get a dog.

Your dog has led a good life, a much longer life that it would probably have had if he had gone to a different owner. Rehoming 8 year old dogs is difficult, never mind an older dog with behavioural and medical difficulties. It also might be very unkind and confusing for your dog after all these years, to stop being with you and get used to a new owner. It´s a difficult decision to make, but I think putting him to sleep would be the best solution to this problem. He has had a good life, and as a larger breed, he is reaching the end of his life anyway. A life where he can´t see you or lives separately from the family is not a good life for him if that´s not what he is used to.

This bit is the really hard bit of being a dog owner. But I think it is our responsibility to our pets that we make the decision for what is best for them, not what is least painful for us.

DJ we did that. He was fine with the doll. Cos it was a doll!

He knew it was an inanimate object - I may as well have been cuddling a cup of tea!

The real deal smelt and sounded and moved very very differently!

DJBaggy, he hasn't lunged at anyone in years. That doesn't mean he won't, or that I trust him not too, I'm always on my guards

I've taken him to
Obedience classes
Agility classes
Three behaviourists
Driven over an hour on the weekends for a whole year to take him to dog socialisation classes
I have a stack of about 20 books on dog behaviour!

I have done everything I can. He is vastly improved, but I tend to err on the side of caution with him. Always. Better wary than an incident

When he gets stressed, the red mist descends and he goes deaf. I could wave a whole roast chicken under his nose but he'd be too stressed to care. It's hard to train a dog in those circumstances. We tried, but bring in London means he was constantly pushed over his threshold by other out of control dogs "being friendly".

At the end of the day, his genetics clearly influence his behaviour and no amount of training will resolve that.

The issue is not just dog + newborn. It's dog plus newborn who becomes a toddler who becomes a small child then older child.

Newborns and dogs can be kept apart relatively easily. Small children and dogs not so much. Small children can open stair gates and forget to shut doors behind them and don't just quietly go to sleep in the evening when it's the dog's turn for some attention. Toddlers can accidentally tread on dogs, pull ears or tails and their unpredictable behaviour can be frightening for some dogs.

You sound like an incredibly responsible and loving dog owner and in the end you've got to ask yourself what is best for your dog. For all the reasons you've explained rehoming is obviously not an option. For all the reasons PPs have explained this dog and a baby are not a good mix and trying to keep both will make your first few years of parenting miserable and stressful.

I think the very kindest thing is having him PTS. He's had a lovely life with you but going forward his life will not be happy. I think if you could ask him, his answer would be to end it now in a loving, peaceful and kind manner after his happy life and not put him through the stress and upset of being kept apart from his family shut up in rooms on his own.

Tragic, but you've given him a wonderful life.

Tamberlane - I enquired 'if' it was ethical. I understand now many have explained the difficulties of rehoming (by which I meant an adoption charity tbh) that putting the animal to sleep may be more merciful.

I know a vet would never do anything unethical so my question was just an innocent question as to IF a vet would put to sleep an healthy pet.

I have my answer now. I hope the OP finds a solution.

Great so thats a good start, but how much control do you have over this dog? Can you use verbal commands to make him sit or lie down? Does he have a solid recall?

If you are in any doubt you put your childs safety first and have him PTS. Theres no need to agonise over the decision. You have already done more for him than most people would have.
Dogs do kill babies and children. Its not being OTT to say its a real risk. He isnt rehomable.
Taking this kind of responsibility goes with buying this kind of dog.

Thanks Elspeth, that made me chuckle. I'm sorry you went through such a hard time too. You're story makes me feel like this would be our scenario too. Like we'd struggle for months, it would be really hard, only to have to ultimately accept it wasn't working. I find have adult guests over quite stressful, I know I'd be so worried about the baby. I'm glad you found a happy home for your dog, you were exceptionally lucky because as you said, they are gold dust for difficult dogs.

And thanks for offering to describe animal euthanasia to me Tamberlane. I am sure that will be nice for the poor conflicted OP! I don't need it described to me as I saw it for myself when my cat was put to sleep.

I also remember a cat when I was young that 'disappeared' one day.We found out that my DM had taken it to the vets to be put down because it was a bit feral. So I guess my views were coloured a bit by that. But I was a child so doubt I had the full picture.

OP we have a 28kg softy pet of a dog who has always been a gentle best friend to our 2 year old since birth, we adore our pets, and I would advise that you don't keep your dog with a child. Newborn stage wouldn't be my biggest concern in terms of safety, small babies are almost always with you, they don't move and the only noise is crying. Toddlers however, much more volatile. Ours goes to the baby gate to feed things to the dog, deliberately screeches to annoy one of the cats, and is constantly climbing on the dog and making sudden noises throwing toys etc. As mentioned our dog is a softie, she's 9 and we've had her since she left her mum, but even so we never leave the two together unattended unless it's the few seconds that they run out of the room together before I catch up etc. With a sensitive, fear aggressive large dog you will have a full time job stopping a toddler from upsetting him, and a toddler will do it deliberately if they realise it gets you annoyed/gets them attention.

Ours has proven that she lets him do things we can't (we get jumped on if we take her fave toys, he's allowed to throw them for her while she waits patiently) and we still wouldn't ever leave them unsupervised. With explosive nappies, things being broken, running a bath etc there will accidentally be times later on that it will add serious hassle and make it impossible to make sure they don't come into contact. As a pp said babies don't just go down for the evening, you'll spend many nights with them up til 10/11/12 and up every two hours.

Please, other posters, if you commit to a dog (before you reproduce), think: do I envisage myself being able to keep both? If you might let the dog down (i.e. put it down), please don't get the dog in the first place. You take on an animal, it is your responsibility

Ubertasha If I thought for one moment that the OP was someone who was shunting her perfectly healthy and stable dog off the nanosecond she got a BFP, then I would agree with you. Sadly I have dealt with a number of people who come to the rescue to "donate" their animals (yes really, some of them think they are doing as a favour by "donating" their scared, loyal and utterly bewildered pet) because they can't be bothered. Or in the particularly memorable case of the nasty little princess who turned up one day with a two year old pure-bred (and expensive) dog, she was pregnant and therefore didn't "need" the dog anymore. The dog was taken in, she paid her fee and then left with a tongue-lashing from the owner which I doubt she forgot in a hurry.

But OP took her boy in when he was still a puppy - there would be no way of her knowing that his problems would be so severe and irreparable. I really don't think she can be criticised for trying to find a good solution to this issue - and there is nothing wrong with her wanting to start a family. Ultimately she is trying to do the right thing for her dog - and TBH his problems sound so extreme that had he been in my rescue, I very much doubt he would have ever stayed long term as they would probably have PTS. As PP have said, 'healthy' includes mental health and behavioural issues.

I would never dare take the risk of re-homing him because finding the 'right' person, who would be prepared to give the amount of time and dedication that the OP has, would be next to impossible. Consider also that there is a very real risk of him hurting someone - which is a risk assessment factor that cannot be overlooked. We have to be very careful with re-homing dogs anyway, but dogs with behavioural issues need even more careful vetting. This is because if you place them in the 'wrong' home and the adopter decides that they cannot cope, then there is a high risk of them being advertised on Gumtree or similar as free to a good home. If the dog is large or has aggressive tendencies, then this corresponds to an extremely high risk of being used for dog-fighting. I have seen and dealt with the aftermath of that and I would PTS in a second to avoid that fate.

I'm sorry for what's happening, but there is no way I would trust this dog with a baby/child. You won't be able to guarantee that you can watch the baby and dog all the time.

There could possibly be major jealousy issues on the dogs part. Which can have awful outcomes.

In this instance I would put to sleep as it is not fair to rehome an aggressive dog.

It's not what you want to hear, but your child has to come first.

The problem you have here is that you may only get one chance to find out whether the dog will accept your baby. Personally I wouldn't let my children anywhere near a dog like that. You may well find that once you hold your baby in your arms you feel exactly the same way. The safety of a totally vulnerable child should always supersede a dog.