Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

[Lemondrop09]

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

Hi OP.

I think once your baby is here, it will become a no-brainer for you, if still a sad decision of course.

PS good for you for being level headed about the risks and being responsible about it.

OP apols as haven't RTFT but if your kennels is a good one, could you see if they would adopt your dog, or may they know someone who would, should you need to? If it were the kennels that could, you'd still be able to see him, which may make it easier for you. It sounds like he thinks he's head of the pack, which probably will make it hard for you when the baby is born. But if you had a plan b (such as kennels adopting him), that might make your decision (whatever that is) easier because you'll be having time to come to terms with it, if that makes sense? xx

So sorry for you Lemondrop09 - such a challenging situation. I read your thread last night on a long car journey. We are another family with a rescue dog here - 25kg. When he pulls hard, he really pulls! When he jumps up (he's newly with us and still learning!) he could easily knock people over. I woke up this morning thinking about your situation: "40kg" !! OMG, that's one big dog.

You've done so well by him - in your shoes, I would have a few conversations with the trainer and the vet and see how you feel then.

Of course you are not unreasonable trying for a family now! You've had some bonkers comments on there but thankfully also some reasonable advice from people who have dealt with large dogs with issues. Take heart with what they say and ignore the rest of it.

I'm sorry about your difficult situation OP. You have persisted with this dog far longer than most people would have. Please ignore the bonkers posts on ghis thread.

Such a hard decision. Whatever decision you make has to be the right one for you, the dog and your baby. I really don't envy you but I think you are being very sensible and level headed about it.

I understand how hard this must be for you. I volunteered at a dog shelter for many years, and saw how hard it was to find the right homes for the larger breeds, particularly huskies, Akitas and Mastiffs. As a PP says, in a few years he'll be an older dog, possibly suffering from arthritis or just feeling less sprightly than he used to. You have no way of knowing whether ageing will make him harder to deal with than he is now, but you do know that he'll be entering his twilight years with an additional stress factor and less time from you to help him deal with it.

People say it's better to PTS a day early than a day late. In some cases that's not because of illness, but quality of life. The last years of his life shouldn't be about managing him, but enjoying his company. In your position, hard as it is, I'd let him go now, and remember that you gave him the care and trust he needed to have a fuller life than he would have done.

So age 25 the op was offered a large abused, aggressive, anxious dog, who had been rejected by five different owners already, and she agreed to take him on - put huge amounts of time into helping him feel secure and improving his behaviour, spend thousands on classes and behavioural therapists and renting a field for him, have the daily stress of walking him, the chance that potential partners and friends might be put off by him, the difficulty introducing him to friends and family - she agreed to do all this, rather than choose a straightforward dog, to avoid him being put to sleep.

But according to some posters she should have thought "ooh I'd better not, because if his behaviour doesn't improve and if he's still alive in 8years and if I get married and if we want children and if we are fertile and if we don't think the dog is safe with baby and if we can't rehome him, then we might decide to put him to sleep, because I'm not going to remain childless for this dog. And although that's a lot of ifs, apparently I shouldn't get a dog if I can't guarantee a home for his natural life, so I'll reject him and he can be put to sleep now instead"

I think the op has done a huge amount for this dog and it's reasonable for her to have this as a limit.

I also think you should only rehome him if you are confident you have found a suitable new home where they can manage him. Don't risk him being with someone who has underestimated his needs, where he'll have the stress of rehoming, and then it falls apart months down the line.

I have five dogs, one of them has fear aggression towards unknown dogs and some strangers. Never bitten although if she was pushed too far, I guess she could (she's a Lab btw)

My son is two and she absolutely idolises him. She is so sweet, gentle and kind, they have a lovely bond. She is also fantastic with other people's kids and rather enjoys all the hustle and bustle. She just doesn't find them intimidating or scary.

I won't lie, when my son was a newborn, her issues pushed me to the limit of my sanity. Walking her was a nightmare, her reaction towards strangers was so stressful and there were many times that I thought I couldn't cope and in my most desperate times I considered PTS!

But I worked with a good behaviourist and really focussed on her training and she has come so far. She's still reactive but I know how to manage her quirks and I now accept that she's never going to be a laid back Lab like the others and that's just her. But her good points outweigh the bad a 100 times over. She is such an important part of our family.

I understand your fears concerning your baby but you know your dog and how bonded he is to you, a baby will likely become an extension of this. However the thing to really consider is managing his behaviour with a newborn because it's not for the faint hearted. It will be incredibly stressful but it can be done, it just takes a lot of management.

Hi OP,
As a mother and rescue dog owner I completely understand the situation you are in. However I think you should be very proud of the fact that you invested so much time and money into trying to help alleviate your dog's problems and give him a happy life. I'm pretty positive that most people would have probably given up trying a long time ago.
You are making sensible, level headed decisions before reaching your conclusion, one name that I thought might be worth contacting was Jo-Rosie Haffenden as I know she has experience with Pitbull/rescue and abuse cases.
Will be thinking of you 💐

Please euthanize your dear dog. Peacefully, quietly, with you holding his paw. You have done so much for him. He has had a far far better life than he ever would have done without knowing you. Do it soon and feel happy that you made a massive difference to an abused dog's life.

Oh OP, what a situation to be in. I was in a similar situation. My faihful old rescue collie had aggression issues with other dogs but she was the gentlest creature I've ever met. Several people said I'd need to get rid of her, but I put in a lot of time working with her, then walking her on a halti next to the buggy. When DS was newborn, she had to have a tumour removed, so required daily cleansing/care. It was tough, but they are both my babies so with the help of DH, I managed. She grew to love DS and altho a bit jealous, was quite happy sitting in her bed snoozing!
When Ds had a nap, I;d take her in the garden for a play with the ball and attention. When DH came home, I walked her for half an hour just to get a break.
So it can work. We lost her 2 years ago but kids still talk about her and miss her!
I'm very glad you;re speaking to the trainer that knows the dog and hope you at least give your dog a chance. If you do decide to PTS, its a huge decision, you have to live with it.
for you. I hope you make the right decision for all of you. :(

Evil but the OPs dog is over 40kg and she has explained why things that seem simple, like pushing the chair with the dog alongside her, wouldn't be simple at all in their case. She needs two hands free at all times to manage the dog when they go out and it is extremely stressful even in that case. At home, the dog is only allowed to meet certain people - this is what really stood out to me.

I agree it's a dreadful situation. It woudl be great if a trainer/behaviourist emerged who could crack this...particularly given his age.

I came on here prepared to say YABU.... but i feel really sorry for you.

You've given the dog a very good life. To be honest, a big breed at 8 years old will likely be in his twilight years anyway.

From what you've said it would be dangerous trying to cope with him and a baby, and rehoming him would cause him a lot of stress and someone could get hurt.

Dogs don't have a concept of the future. Spend a day doing the things he loves, and then have him put to sleep.

OP I really really sympathise, what an awful situation.

However, when it comes down to it, baby comes first. You'll either have to guarantee that the child and the dog can be kept separate at all times, or you'll have to pts.

Whatever about when the baby is a newborn, but you'd have to be SO vigilant when you've a boisterous toddler to look after. They are so quick, and so interested in animals. It would literally take 2 seconds for something to happen. I just couldn't risk it given your dog's history.

You sound like a fantastic, considerate dog owner - there should be more like you.

Hi OP, you get my heartfelt sympathies -- and admiration too for everything you've done for this dog so far.

I wish you the best of luck in making your decision and can easily appreciate how hard it must be.

Please accept some cyber-flowers

I'm a dog lover , an animal lover but I do believe sometimes putting an animal to sleep IS the kindest thing . The fog sounds like it will be seriously upset by this baby and also by going to another home . I know I would rather put my elderly cat to sleep than re home him . He wouldn't survive without me and it WOULd be kinder to him .. I will add I know quite a few people who have put horses to sleep because of troubles that were beyond repair or they couldn't keep them etc .. you could keep them separate if you have a big enough house but the dog will always feel pushed out which is a dangerous place to be with a newborn ... I wish you luck with your decision either way .

What a terrible choice to have to make, but I think you know you need to PTS. It will be the kindest thing all round. Do it before the baby comes. Give him the BEST time for as long as you can, then take him and say goodbye.

Excellent post hopelessly

I'm with you OP and agree with everything BetrandRussell has said.

I have 2 shepherd mixes, both rescued as pups. I fell pregnant shortly after we adopted Ddog2 who was found under a car at 7 weeks old and had a pretty rough start.

DDog1 was born in the shelter and handled from birth so trusts humans totally. DDog2 not so much. He's definitely a pack dog, and loves us with every fibre of his being, but he's fear reactive to the doorbell and strangers. He barks so aggressively at the door and doesn't like to be touched by strangers. Dogs he's totally fine with thankfully.

Anyway, when I fell pregnant, we undertook intensive training with him. There was no way for us to know how he would be with a baby (or Ddog1 for that matter). Since both my kids were born, DDog2 is the most loving and patient dog. He and DS2 (3 years) are best friends. He's patient, loves being hugged, petted etc etc.

But before we had DS1, we drew the hard line that if either dog so much as growled or bared teeth at the baby, we would rehome. Both dogs were introduced to plenty of children as pups but, as much as I love them both, I couldn't have lived with myself.

As it is DDog2 has gotten better as he's gotten older, he still goes nuts at the door and we put both dogs away when we have a lot of visitors, but once he knows someone he loves them.

My boy doesn't sound as bad as yours so I think you can safely say that 8 years of training has not helped as much as you would have hoped. This is one risk I wouldn't take.

Take some time to make your decision, but I hope you make it knowing in your heart that you have given that dog the very best life possible.

You have given the dog the best life he could possibly hope for - a good home, love, care and commitment.

Do not beat yourself up if you can't do so any longer. If he has to be put down, he has had many bonus years. If he can be re-homed, then the chance of another lovely owner is because you cared for him so well.

when my son was 2 / 3 my mum came to live with us and her rescue dog. The issue for us wasn't the baby, it was the toddler who could never be left near the dog alone. We had a witching hour about 5pm when DS would suddenly dive for the sleeping dog and grab it by the neck. He knew not to hurt her "I'm only giving her a hug mummy" and we always kept one adult in the room with him and the dog but if you turned away for a moment, to pick up a toy or the TV control or the grab a tissue you'd be charging after the bloody toddler. I've known other people as well with existing dogs and new grandchildren who get told not to pull ears or poke eyes but children under 5 can be very spontaneous.

I wouldn't risk it, not because your dog might be violent, but because your baby will become the toddler with no impulse control who will grab and poke. Your dog doesn't sound like he could cope with that, however much you supervise as a parent and cart the dog off to the bathroom with you because it's easier than taking the toddler, and take the toddler with you to answer the phone, you're still looking at a situation which starts with you being sleep deprived and gets more unpredictable for the next 3+ years.

OP, you obviously love your dog very much (and why wouldn't you, he's been in your life for so long now and is a part fo your family.) I think I can honestly say I would be wanting to try everything safely possible to keep from having to PTS if I were in your position.

If your dog is happy to be on his own then you might find that splitting the house into baby's part and dog's part is a good place to start. Bear in mind that guidelines are that the baby sleep wherever you are for the first 6 months, which means if you're sitting in the lounge of an evening, baby should be in the room with you, sleeping in a moses basket or pram or on you. This will impact your thinking you can just pop baby in their cot and spend the evenings with your dog. Of course they are just guidelines, and it is up to you as to whether you follow them, but it was something I made sure I did.

Can you try playing a video of baby crying to see how your dog reacts. A guarding breed might be less reactive than a terrier, for example, or he might get more anxious - this is something you can start to test now. Then try putting a stair gate in and going into another room where he can't see you, play the baby crying noise more, see if he's bothered/anxious. Get a trainer in who has some experience of readying dogs for new babies, and who is sympathetic to an anxious/reactive dog.

Work through everything now that would change when baby comes home and see what you can safely do, with help if available, to gauge his reactions. Also consider things like walks - they seem like they wouldn't be easy to manage - assuming the dog is ok with you pushing baby in a pram/pushchair, would you be able to drive him and baby to the secure field every day (or every other day) to walk him?

You say you're early days in your pregnancy, so you've got some time to devote to this, however there's no guarantee you will have an easy pregnancy at any point, so you're right to be thinking about this now. I think if I was you I would start putting out feelers with trainers and specialist rescues - put all your efforts (as much as you can manage given you understandably fragile state - I was lucky not to have HG, I imagine it's completely draining) into rehoming him with someone well equipped to deal with him with all of his issues, and willing to take him for the next x years (as a mixed breed there's no guarantee he'll live the shorter life typical of either of his mixes. Do this whilst talking with trainers etc about whether it's possible to keep him - it's easy for strangers online to say that PTS is the only option, but it's also incredibly hard for you to see past your wanting to keep him.

I think I would also set a time limit on the rehoming search - i.e. if he's not safely handed over into a new home by the time you're 7 months, then you have to strongly consider PTS. It's the last option, and very much something you will need to feel you've actively sought to avoid to the best of your ability.

You need to keep the dog and take precautions. I can't believe how many people on here are saying about putting the dog to sleep. Millions upon millions of people live happily with both dogs and children. I hate it so much when people say 'I'm pregnant - dog has to go, rabbit has to go, get rid of the fish - we can't cope...' awful way to view animals.