Transing a 4 year old

[ShadowChancellor]

On Monday, all the children at my kids school were taught about being transgender because the parent of a reception kid have decided that X is actually Y and are now sending their kid in as the opposite sex and have changed their name.

According to my kid they were shown a video that was all about how if you were a boy and liked girl things and girl clothes you were a girl and it was all very positive.

No parents were told before this happened. We only found out when the kids came out of school on Monday and told us.

AIBU to a) think that transing a kid at 4 years old is more to do with the parents not liking the fact that their kid prefers girls toys to boys toys and b) that the other parents should've been told before they showed our kids this film and promoted it all in school.

Its caused a lot of confusion with the younger kids who think you can change whether you are a boy or girl just by wishing it and didn't mention at all all of the problems that it can cause.

southall
:)
It's not being taught about being trans.
Is to be told that you're trans if you're a boy who likes dolls.
Surely that's easy enough to understand.
A tolerant and open society doesn't care what boys or girls play with or dress like without making them think they are a different sex.

Im shocked by the extent of Transphobia on mums net. That's ok, reality is often shocking.

If changing gender is now a human right then everyone just has to get used to the fact that your school kids will be taught along side trans kids.

That's funny and uninformed. Changing gender is not possible (do you really believe, skirts, pink fluffy toys and Elsa dress = female gender?????? that's a bit daft dear). Changing gender is NOT a human right stop spreading misinformation alternative facts.

Even if you pull your kids from seeing videos, you cant stop the teachers talking to your kids about the subject on a daily basis.

Really? That's how self obsessed Trans women are? You really belief teachers will speak about trans in class everyday? Rather learning to read and write? Right! Here have a

My ds is 5, and has Sn. Recently, when I tell him he's a good boy, he says No mummy, I'm a good girl. I asked him why he's a girl and not a boy? He says that he likes girls. He's always been a bit confused in his speech about his/hers, he/she. He gets muddled up. I'm trying not to read too much into at the moment. It could just be a phase.

It's not transphobic to question what children are being taught.

From another MN thread, great blog

thenewbacklash.blogspot.co.uk

Extract

Many well-meaning Leftists seem to be entirely unaware of or misinformed about this situation. I made this blog for them.

Things I've become afraid to say in public, or on the internet under my own name:

Ova-producing humans are female, and sperm-producing humans are male.
Sexism still exists, and sexism is based on sex:
The male reproductive system is where male privilege attaches.
The female reproductive system is where female oppression attaches.
Sexism is not erased by any other axis of oppression/privilege.
Sexism cannot be addressed by pretending sex doesn't exist.
Penis is never female.
Men don't get pregnant.
Girls are socialized differently from boys.
Neither self-subjugation nor self-objectification for male pleasure is an innate feature of femaleness.
Sex doesn't determine personality, and personality doesn't determine sex.
Female people are entitled to female-only spaces.
Female people saying no to penis is not hate speech.
Female people are not responsible for male violence.
Female people are not responsible for putting male victims of male violence ahead of female victims of male violence.
Getting laid is not a human right.
Lesbians are not bigoted for rejecting penis.
Gender non-conforming children should not be forced to pretend they are the opposite sex nor should they be referred to clinics for sterilization.

also

Now, the dialog around "transgender" issues is dense and confusing and emotional and often downright abusive. Transgender identity politickers cloud the issues on purpose, but feminists can also fail to express ourselves clearly when we are 1) grounded in decades of theory most people have not read and/or 2) feeling defensive due to the endless attempts of anti-feminists to vilify/silence us.

So, first some clarification on my part: for several decades now, feminist theorists have been using the word gender to refer to the social and psychological expectations thrust upon women and men, otherwise referred to as sex stereotypes or sex roles. However, feminists and pro-feminists outside of academic circles may use the word gender to mean "biological category of male or female" (in contrast with the act of sexual intercourse) - and that's understandable because we need words for all these things. However, to add to the confusion, transgender identity politickers use the term gender or gender identity to mean an innate-but-undefinable inner feeling that overrides and in fact determines biological sex. When discussing gender, always stay alert to the multiple possible definitions of the term, and ask for clarification when needed.
End of blog quote

Southall is just doing her usual agent provocateur thing.

Also from the blog

thenewbacklash.blogspot.co.uk/p/5-misogyny-of-left.html

The misogyny of the Left

"Most of us think of the Left as the more feminist-friendly side of the political spectrum. However, as documented in the preceding pages of this blog, many Leftists view female biology as (literally) unspeakably gross. "Female" is thus the only [facet of human experience subject to oppression] which the Left doesn't view as definable/important without somehow "reducing" our humanity. "Female" is also the only [facet of human experience subject to oppression] which the Left feels can and should be re-defined by the fantasies of our oppressor class.

Clearly the Left is not free of misogyny.

In fact, many feminists have pointed out that men on the Left have co-opted and twisted women's liberation for their own ends. Men on the Left still define women by our bodies and what they can do for men – not by our fecundity, but by our penetrability. To them, women are not born to the potential baby-making class but to the facilitation-of-male-orgasm class. What matters is not the uterus but any body cavity on offer for recreational rather than procreational penile penetration and ejaculation.

Our bodies are no longer fetal incubators belonging to individual men; instead our bodies are masturbatory aids to be used and discarded by all men. We are no longer born to whisper "you're such a good provider" and push football sized infants into the world via our vaginas, but to scream "oh my god you're so big" and be buggered to the point of anal prolapse."

Boiing this is something that worries me too. The trans lobby is dragging as many people as possible into the orbit of what they claim is being some sort of sex non-conformity.

I have PCOS which involves higher levels of testosterone so according to many within the trans lobby this makes me intersex. It just goes to show the hypocrisy. You can identify as whatever sex you like - unless the trans lobby decides to assign you one.

I have PCOS which involves higher levels of testosterone so according to many within the trans lobby this makes me intersex. It just goes to show the hypocrisy. You can identify as whatever sex you like - unless the trans lobby decides to assign you one.

Same, they just use us to bulk up their numbers. But of course we're just women so are solely there to be used by men.

Yet another thing that confuses me, that some of the very same right on parents that are big on gender neutral parenting ( nothing wrong with that) are also embracing a trans rights philosophy that is at least partially ( if not significantly) at odds with their gender neutral stance. It's so illogical!

Yes to that wiggly!

What's all the bloody naval gazing? It seems decadent. As a society we probably have it too good. Is trans a middle class thing? If people had to struggle to put food on the table, they'd probably be less concerned with their identity.

(Hemlock and bill, you should start co-opting their made up suicide stats...)

I would fully support an individual going through this if it makes them more comfortable in their skin. Of course

Yes, but if we're talking about children it'd be much better to have a go at helping them to feel comfortable in their skin and accepting of their biological sex before even thinking about whether they might wish to identify as the opposite sex.

Hahaha at Women with cysts on their ovaries being lumped in with intersex.

They are female sex organs.

Every time I think I can't be surprised anymore some other shit happens.

So, at the suggestion of Southall, I'm going to move to a less tolerant society where this TERF nonsense hasn't taken a hold yet...

I choose...Iran!

The Iranians bloody hate women. But what they hate more than women is gay men.

So the solution is to give gay men no choice but to be women. Perfect. How very enlightened of them.

Questioning the trans agenda is not the same as being a bigot. In fact, when we are accused of being 'like the oppressors of homosexuals' I get really irritated.

Because the vast majority of us are not saying anyone is wrong for wanting to present however they like and live however they want. It is exactly the opposite.

The kinder and more inclusive stance is ours:

'Do what you like. Be who you want to be. Do what you want to do. But don't feel like you have to change sex to do it. You are a unique human being who is somewhere on the made-up 'gender spectrum' and you can be however you want to be without changing the biological reality of your sex'

If we are accepting in that way, then people (bar the truly gender dysphoric) can get on with their lives without going through painful and unnecessary surgery and hormone therapy - which will ultimately prove disappointing anyway because they will find themselves to simply be a man without a penis and nothing will actually have changed for them.

I would be absolutely livid and the school (and probably the LA and local paper) would definitely have known about it.

How dare they?! They need permission to talk to kids in Upper primary school about sex but decided to tell year R about trans without parental permission? Absolutely world gone mad! I bet you're not the only parent fuming.

I also suspect many MTTs either don't know a lot of biological females or have an incredible psychological distance from the women in their lives. It strikes me over and over that they don't actually know how biological adult females really behave, or think, or act. They are working off some sort of hyperreal gross illusion of "womanhood" and that is why so many biological females find the situation so bizarre.

YY. I don't know if you remember or were on the thread but there was a late transitioning transwoman who came onto FWR a few months back. They gamely tried to argue with feminist posters and made all the same really crappy arguments we've heard a thousand times. They flounced, but not before telllng us what a lovely night out they'd just had with proper feminists who hung on their every word and validated them and reassured them in their view of themselves. Without stopping to think how the presence of a man might have changed the dynamic. That's what they expected of women. Aside from their ex who they'd fathered lots of children with and for whom they expressed dislike and resentment. Funnily enough, we never got her side of the story. But I'm pretty sure I know where my sympathy would lie.

Re the pcos bit

I know this is going to come up with one of my friends

Does anyone know offhand what the testosterone ranges are for a woman, a pcos woman and a man

I have tried looking i think the max for a woman is 3 the lowest for a man is about 10 but i cant find where pcos lies. I have probably found it but i am not clever enough to decipher it

It's off the top of my head, but I'm sure I remember reading that usual levels for women are in the 0.2-0.6 kind of range - the value of up to three includes pcos.

But, that's from memory so could be wrong

Whichoneofyoudidthat

^ OP our kids' school tried to implement major changes and the Head/Deputy head stonewalled the parents' objections. It was maddening. Now the issues we had were entirely different from yours, but but we rallied, organised ourselves (and in the process found the vast majority of the teachers were on our side but nervous to speak up) and we demanded evidence to demonstrate that the direction the school was taking was the correct one (of course they couldn't supply it) and in general, we didn't shut up about it. Several months later we managed to get the proposal overturned.

Fight this. It's bullshit. Why should you accept your children being caught up is down, wet is dry and black is white?^

I think as parents, we all need to do so much more of this, it is insane how much momentum and support this sort of thing has gained with so little known about the consequences.

Re: PCOS

I found this on normal testosterone levels (ng/dL)
Avg. Adult Male = 270-1,070(ng/dL)
Avg. Adult Female = 15-70(ng/dL)

And this on PCOS levels.
"Testosterone levels may be normal (20-80 ng/dl, 0.7-2.8 nmol/l) or elevated but usually less than 200 ng/dl"

So there's no overlap. Even accounting for the slightly different normal levels the two sites are saying.

As a previous reception class teacher and deputy for 10years what I'm uncomfortable with is the fact that the school did not seek approval from parents regarding the screening of the film. It is not good enough to say they didn't ask permission or tell parents because there would be too much opposition-surely that shows that the school knew parents wouldn't be happy about it so chose to show it secretly. I sounds from what people are saying is that its not necessarily the fact the film was shown but rather the way it has been presented (eg if you like girls things you must be a girl). Whether this is the film or the children's interpretation of the film is irrelevant, if parents had been given the opportunity to view the film before the children then maybe they would be better placed to discuss it with their children. As a parent I would be asking to view the film and then write a letter to the chair of governor rather than the head would seem a good idea.

I slightly disagree, actually, Char.

I would have objected to it being shown without consultation, yes.

But also that it was being shown at all.

After all, I might have viewed it and withdrawn my child from seeing it (because no one is telling my child that it is possible to have a boy or a girl brain), but what about the parents who are less engaged or able to discuss it with their children for whatever reason?

It has no place in school.

Yes to a PSHE programme that teaches tolerance and acceptance and that there are no 'boy toys' and 'girl toys'

But no to 'sometimes boys can be girls inside' because it's not true.

I do wonder if the tide is turning ever so so slightly with the rise in male 'make up gurus' on YouTube etc. People like Jeffree Star (who is a massive twat but has a HUGE following) and Manny MUA (who has just become the first man to be the face of Maybelline) are men who like makeup but appear to be quite clearly not 'trans' ie. They are not claiming to be 'women' they are just men who love makeup. Hopefully there will be lots of boys out there who see this and recognise that this is acceptable rather than having to go down the route of 'transitioning' to become something they are not.