Transing a 4 year old

[ShadowChancellor]

On Monday, all the children at my kids school were taught about being transgender because the parent of a reception kid have decided that X is actually Y and are now sending their kid in as the opposite sex and have changed their name.

According to my kid they were shown a video that was all about how if you were a boy and liked girl things and girl clothes you were a girl and it was all very positive.

No parents were told before this happened. We only found out when the kids came out of school on Monday and told us.

AIBU to a) think that transing a kid at 4 years old is more to do with the parents not liking the fact that their kid prefers girls toys to boys toys and b) that the other parents should've been told before they showed our kids this film and promoted it all in school.

Its caused a lot of confusion with the younger kids who think you can change whether you are a boy or girl just by wishing it and didn't mention at all all of the problems that it can cause.

Leather I'm a Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, and proud of it. Liberal feminists (and that is imo an oxymoron) are falling over themselves to be inclusive to the point of denying the rights and needs of women in order to support MTT people.

Luckily we seem to finally be reaching peak trans and even the liberals are seeing sense again. and TERF is now seen as a term of abuse.

(To clarify I mean there is a difference between exploring gender through play as many children do and being transgender, but it is something that becomes clear very early in some cases, and professionals are well placed to help parents who are concerned differentiate between the two.)

Joy definitely not homophobic, and apologies if it came across as glib. I can only speak from my own experience; a 17 year old daughter who has had relationships with boys and girls and who hangs out with a crowd of similar kids.

She also went to a (state) secondary school that was very positive about gay sexuality (visiting talks by Ian McKellen etc) where there were many openly gay kids and homophobic bullying was not a thing. (Grim northern ex mill town, not trendy London enclave).

I am informed by my own experience. I am saddened if this is not the norm nowadays.

GahBuggerit

I cant believe the parents are allowed to carry on tbh. its child abuse. pure and simple

Who is going to report it to whom?

Haven't RTFT but have read enough to know I'll probably get shot down for this, oh well..

My 5.5yo DD was born my DS. Aged 3 she asked to wear dresses. Aged 4 she said she actually was a girl and has been living as one ever since. She has changed her name and refers to herself as a girl. We have not encouraged this beyond telling her that everyone has a right to be happy and express themselves as they wish, so long as they're not hurting anyone else in the process. She seems happy enough, and we have made it quite clear that any time she wishes to make another change that's fine by us. It's never been anything to do with which toys she liked. Indeed, even now she'll play as happily with typically 'boy' toys as she will with 'girl' ones.

So yes it can happen, and, quite frankly, you can fuck off with your cries of child abuse. My kid is not abused, no one is forcing her to be this way. I don't think she would have been so happy if we had refused to let her do this. She is doing well at school, has a good friendship group (of boys and girls) and doesn't appear to be struggling in any way.

That said, the video the OP describes does sound shit, so YANBU on that count OP.

I agree with posters too that it's crazy that somehow if you play with a mixed range of toys and colours this seens to makes you trans these days. For example a girl playing with cars and trucks and liking the colour blue, or a boy liking pink and dressing up in dresses and playing with dolls somehow means they are "trans". What a load of codswallop! Colours and toys aren't or shouldn't be assigned to gender. I always made an effort to provide different types of toys, dress ups and a range of colours for both boys and girls in my family and when they played with trucks as girls or dolls as boys it was just considered normal. This is getting ridiculous.

Not RTFT yet but just wanted to agree with this I'd be furious with the gender stereotype shit they are going on about as well. - yes, it's the implication that you can't possibly be a boy who likes dolls and dresses and pink. It's only ok if you're a girl. FTFO.

I would like to make my position clear- imo there is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to express within the gender role assigned to your sex- many of us do it all of the time including many who have posted here. What is wrong is to the idea that you can 'identify' as a different sex. We are born a combination of mind body and soul- anyone who hates the body they were born with has a psychological issue that they MAY need help to resolve. Or they may just grow up in an environment which allows them to express in ways they feel comfortable with and resolution may come as they grow up.

Ugh. I would be really miffed if school went down the line of "boys things" and "girls thigs". And super annoyed at this film.

The most important post on this thread is the one from GirlScout72 at 11.42 setting out the rules by which doctors are supposed to decide whether a child is transgender. I think it should appear every time the issue of child transition is raised.

Under those criteria about a third of the mothers posting so far (vague guesstimate) would have qualified for a fucking sex change. This is very, very scary stuff.

We've discussed this issue a lot on the Feminism board and, because we're interested we've built up a lot of links to work examining the claims and the science behind this stuff. People need to know that there is zero science behind any of this. There is no such thing as someone "born in the wrong body" nor is there proof of pink/blue brains.

As for children somehow "knowing" that they're trans at 4, research shows that if children who express issues with gender are left alone 80% simply grow out of it. A lot of those kids will turn out to be lesbian or gay. So when kids are funneled into transition the end result is gay eugenics which suits some of the religiously conservative families so proud of their "trans" daughter - so much more acceptable than a gay son.

I'd bet we'd all agree that a school's job is to create a nurturing environment for all children? So that includes the one who's currently identifying as different gender. It sounds as though that's what the school were trying to do, which to me is a good intention.

They probably needed to do or say something. Rather than have a formerly boy/girl schoolmate now turn up as the opposite, with nothing being said to the other kids. They could have of course found a better method of explaining about trans stuff and trying to encourage tolerance/acceptance/kindness etc, than the video they picked.

Realistically though what other option would they have. Instead tell the other kids that trans people are deluded and their schoolmate is suffering from a delusion and is being abused by their parents, so that is why you now have to call them Y and refer to them as s/he? Controversial points not everyone, including all medical authorities, agree with.

But that video does sound rather suspect even if it didn't actually say what some took from it.

There was a court case recently wasn't there? Unless child has chromosomal abnormalities then it's simply abuse. I do worry that we no longer teach children gender norms (whilst accepting that some fall outside the majority) and actively promote transgender life to children who cannot possibly understand their own sexuality and who should be making dens and fairy cakes not identifying as something they are not.
There's another thread about unisex names - which is fine but we seem to have lost sight that biology gave most of us a clear gender at birth and to deny this in young children has to lead to mental health issues later on.

This is adults teaching children a lie.
This is adults forcing children to say a lie.
This is adults forcing children to act out a lie.
This is adults teaching children that telling the truth is intolerant and unkind.
This is ultimately adults training children to ignore their own knowledge and intuition and boundaries, and to accept things that are to their own detriment to be nice to others.

Children treated this way need some sort of deprogramming.

And as for the four year old at the heart of this. What kind of escape route, exit plan, u- turn is available to him? (Or her)
"Oh, we've changed our minds, he's really a boy after all because:

• we were stupid to believe stereotypes meant anything?
• we've realised there's no way to become the opposite sex/gender?
• gender doesn't exist after all?
• we've decided that encouraging or endorsing 'wrong body' ideas in a child with a perfectly healthy body is abusive?
• he now likes the opposite stereotypes so we are convinced he is now a boy?"

These admissions are so unlikely to ever be made that there is immense pressure for a child to keep the facade going.

People are buying into this cult so dogmatically that they are leaving no easy escape strategy for the children to get off the conveyor belt.

Well thats kind of my point Boney, SS etc have all been sucked into this utter madness.

if i encouraged my ds to live as something he could never be, a 3 month old baby for instance and put him in nappies and fed him from a bottle i think SS would be interested.

Up until 2015 Stonewall was LGB- it was all about sexuality which has nothing to do with gender identity.

Yes, Joy. And now Stonewall is a lesbophobic organisation which only cares about trans rights.

It's very sad.

I think they could have said "X wants to be known as a girl from now on. That's fine, everyone please try to remember that and be kind," and then sent a letter home to the parents to discuss it with their children as they see fit.

Obviously have zero tolerance for any nastiness, but leave to the parents teach their own child their own take on it.

Ragamuffin do you agree with your child that they are a girl when they talk about it? Do you discuss that it's possible for a boy to turn into a girl?

I was also wondering what support there is for you from the NHS, or CAMHS? Or did you have to go private to see someone?

At 4 years of age, it would simply treated as:
Parents go to school and explain that their boy wants to dress as girls normally do, or to have no restrictions in terms of how he dresses.
Other children are taught that it doesn't matter how you dress, just as long as you're happy.
If they had a uniform, then either all children should wear trousers/shorts, or all could be allowed trousers/shorts/skirts/dresses.

Crumbs We are not given a clear gender at birth. We are given a clear sex (male, female, intersex). Gender is a social construct- girls= pink kind, gentle, boy= blue, macho, aggressive.
Sexuality- heterosexual, bisexual, gay, lesbian.

There is a lot of confusion about terminology- so just to be clear. It doesn't help that T is included in LGBT- the lumping together of vary disparate groups. For example I as a lesbian who loves women, have little in common with many gay men who are often very misogynistic. And lesbian, gay and bisexual all refer to sexual orientation which has nothing to do with gender.
Gender 'identity' is not a fixed or innate part of any of us.

@MadsZero - while any child committing suicide is a tragedy, the 'astronomical' rates amongst the trans population has been found to be from poorly interpreted data which has then been over hyped. The likely actual rates are more in line with the rest of the teenage population.

Also, if you read the article I linked earlier: "The couple are trying to raise enough money so their daughter can have gender reassignment surgery or wait until she is 18 to get it through the NHS." The parents of a 6 year old child, identified as trans at 3, are already thinking about surgery before their child is 18. How can that child have any hope of not fully transitioning? Especially not as the mother is plastering their entire life over a public Facebook page.

I'm sorry but in my mind, this is verging on child abuse. The suggestions of Munchausen's by Proxy might be worth investigating too - who is benefiting from all the publicity?

Thanks Prawn

Every time I read the GID criteria for kids, I simply CANNOT believe they exist, let alone were approved by mental health professionals.

I would also point out that many transactivists might act AS IF gender ID is a thing, but it's NOT, it's not LEGAL in the UK and 'sex' is still a protected characteristic under the equality act 2010, I think more and more parents need to start pointing out that this stuff is sex discrimination and threaten to sue.

Thank you, I didn't know TERF was an abusive term, sorry. The point I am making is that girls and boys, women and men ought to feel free and confident to dress as they please and pursue activities and work that suits them regardless of rigid gender stereotypes. I hate gender stereotypes. Men can never be women, they are biologically not, but they should feel free to play with dolls (well as boys) and wear dresses and make up as girls should feel free and confident to play football and join the army or police force.

I refuse to give up women's hard earned rights for trans women and think it's is superbly troubling that trans issue are introduced to primary aged children. This needs to stop. How can we stop it????

Can we please stop talking about 'identity' as if it is a sacred cow we must all bow down before. I could identify as a squirrel but no matter what kind of tail I had implanted onto my behind I am NEVER GOING TO BRE A SQUIRREL. It isn't OK to encourage our children to identify as things they are not. Its insane!!!! Let them play out roles- I galloped around the playground as a horse one term without this dialogue about 'identity'.

Ragamuffin do you tell your child that they cannot be a girl because its impossible but its ok if they want to wear dresses and play with what others perceive to be girl toys?

My younger ds has regularly made comment that he must be a girl because he plays with the girls in his class, likes to dress up as a princess and generally prefers stereotypical girly stuff. I think this is very common but may feel more intense with some kids. never crossed my mind hes trans though, hes just a normal little kid exploring his personality. I certainly wouldnt think its a good idea to encourage it by calling him her and changing his name at such a young age but no one ever said parenting is easy or a one size fits all.

GahBuggerit

I agree, all reporting routes have being effectively cut off.