To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

[RocketQueenP]

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control

If people are leading chaotic lives, how about we spend some money helping to address the chaos? Mental health services, drug and alcohol treatment programmes are non existent or very short of money.

If people are trapped in abusive relationships how about we spend money to help them get out? women's shelters, counscounselling services, legal aid - again short of money. You could also usefully spend some helping people avoid abusive relationships in the first place.

These are very real problems but child tax credits is not the cure.

"I'd love to know how many people have sat down and said/thought 'I know, let's have that third child because, fuck it, it's what we are entitled to, we will get extra tax credits/income support/housing benefit. We will be rolling in it and let's let every other fucker pay for it hahaha silly fools'"

I think very few people would think like this. But what people in these situations will know is that they will get an increase in income if they have another child, and so there is no significant worsening of their financial circumstances should they have an unplanned (or planned) pregnancy. In some cases, they have the additional attraction of not being expected to find a job because their youngest is getting older. In these circumstances it can lead to things like placing a low priority on being careful with contraception, for instance. Not everyone, by any means.

I have managed to use free contraception for 33 years and it has not failed me and I seem to be pretty fertile as managed to conceive every time first go. it's really not difficult.

@jacks11 the ott part was more to be taken with a pinch of salt through sheer frustration at the lack of empathy exhibited on the thread. Unfortunately access to free contraception and abortion may become limited long term and for those in that situation then they shouldn't be forced into a decision which is based on something which can change over time.

You're right in that the welfare state should be a concept that is bought into by society as a whole or it breaks down - collective responsibility for the vulnerable.

Tax credits as proposed were meant to incentivise work and therefore to then withdraw the incentive defeats the goal overall - to reduce benefit claimants long term; to encourage women back into the workplace and enable financial independence; to encourage social mobility and self worth overall and therefore the knock on effect would be economic growth leading to job growth. Prolonged austerity has retracted a lot of that and I fear that increased rationing of social services; benefit cutting and increased business rates will protract this problem further into the next generation.

How much are these tax credits

What was spaceds stealth boast?

I would ask tired but they just seem to make sound bites

I have had contraception failures, it happens. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

TiredBum Culled? and how exactly would you propose to do that?
Would it be just the parents or would you cull their DC too?

Same here dawn

Condoms

Too small for dh...at least thats what he told me

Sorry tired i meant teacakes in my earlier post

Barbarian Yes, of course funding those services properly would be a good start. But people have to seek help and they may not for a variety of reasons. Because they don't know where to go, because they don't realise they need help, because seeking help is scary or downright dangerous. I don't think financial deprivation is going to make those reasons go away.

OC
It would effect Dixie if her husband decided to leave her after 2019 because those with more than 2 kids are currently prevented from claiming UC however after then if they stick to timetable they won't be. If she's not currently on tax credits then she will have no transitional protection and will be classed as a new claim.

New claims on UC are limited to 2 children (other than those children who qualify for the limited exclusions) regardless of their date of birth

Space
Contraception is currently not restricted in the UK. Nor is abortion, subject to meeting the legal requirements. I don't think you can use that to argue against these planned benefit changes. If they were not available, then you would have a point.

You're right in that the welfare state should be a concept that is bought into by society as a whole or it breaks down - collective responsibility for the vulnerable Yes, of course- but responsibility flows both ways, the system will break down if it is seen to be unfair or misused. Exempting some from responsibility of financial considerations when planning your family and demanding that the state provides for as many children as you chose to have is not the way to strengthen that premise of "shared responsibility".

I disagree with you in many ways, but I don't believe that because of that I lack in empathy.

YANBU OP.
Interestingly, quite a few people dont seem to realise there is no 100% effective form of contraception, or how hard it is to get sterilised.

Divide and rule turned out to be ridiculously easy and effective, didnt it.

Tax credits as proposed were meant to incentivise work and therefore to then withdraw the incentive defeats the goal overall - to reduce benefit claimants long term; to encourage women back into the workplace and enable financial independence; to encourage social mobility and self worth overall and therefore the knock on effect would be economic growth leading to job growth.
YY, stupidly I inhabit that inbetween world where it costs us less as a family for me to not work until youngest DC is in full time school when in the pre-austerity system it would have been financially beneficial to us and the tax system if I did work. Sounds so backwards to say an increased tax break is more beneficial though.

Interestingly, quite a few people dont seem to realise there is no 100% effective form of contraception, or how hard it is to get sterilised.
Also very true. DH and I are both sterilised to some extent, meaning its largely improbable but not completely impossible for another --am pinning hope on not being that

If I'm.a c**t for waiting till I can afford a child before actually having by one then fair enough. We are high rate tax payers now but haven't always been. I volunteer for the cab and definitely dont support all the benefits cuts but there are still provisions for 2.kids!

Today 23:02 mothertruck3r

babybythesea -

1. The cap is not retrospective so a family with 3 or more kids now won't be affected.

yes it is , and yes they will be

Actually there is, dont have sex?

Interestingly, quite a few people dont seem to realise there is no 100% effective form of contraception, or how hard it is to get sterilised

I think most people realise contraception can fail. However, used properly the failure rate is low. For some methods, less than 1% failure rate. So not 100%, but very low.

Often, when contraception fails it is due to user error. If not becoming pregnant is a priority, then to reduce that risk still further methods of contraception can be doubled up e.g. hormonal contraceptive/copper coil + barrier protection/spermacide, for instance. In those circumstances you really very unlucky to fall pregnant and it would only occur in a relatively small number of women.

Needs a sock , a break of six months is allowed. After Nov 2018 you can claim for more than 3dc providing you were claiming tax credits with no longer break. ( Born before 6/4/17 ).

Sorry that was confusing, basically after Nov 2018 the UC system will be able to handle claims for three or more children.
It is only April 2017 to Nov 2018 that it can't.

Can anyone tell me and the others who have asked, how much money people will miss out on?

This thread is just hideous.

I'm a midwife. So earning a good wage (FT on my band would be 37k). My (now ex) husband worked PT to facilitate childcare, and earned 7k. Owned my house. Secure enough circs for a baby.

So when I was pregnant with my 3rd child, I didn't expect in any way, to find out that a) he had an affair while we were TTC number 3, b) that he would then go on and leave me and c) that he would not only abandon me, but completely desert his children too.

So there I was, with 2, soon to be 3 children, working full time, in a career which actually isn't particularly family or childcare friendly.

In that situation, tax credits literally saved me. My personal income fell from 37k (and minus the 7k from my ex) to 13k due to maternity leave.

On my return from maternity leave, I found myself in a very difficult situation. Leave my career, with 10+ years of experience, or rely on tax credits to top up my income and reduce my hours to 24.

Full time work wasn't a) financially viable due to childcare costs being too high and b) with a child being assessed for autism, difficult to balance the full time responsibility for 3 children especially one with additional needs, with working FT. The two didn't work, and won't for some time yet (for me).

Anyway. It could be any of you who find yourselves single, no longer able to work full time, and with a disabled child.

Did I think it would happen to me? No. Why would you assume you would be so unfortunate?

For reference, so the haters can hate some more, my take home monthly is £1423, and I get £1548 in tax credits (set to increase as I am now entitled to the disability rate to be included). My childcare bill is £1200ish a month. Yes. I earn less than I get in tax credits. But what I find more shocking is that my childcare costs are so ridiculously high, almost as much as I earn.

Also, others may find this interesting, I have a boyfriend. He earns 33k. If the relationship progresses and we decide to be more than girlfriend/boyfriend, at current rates, and provided we can still claim for 3 children, with childcare costs remaining £1200 (which they would, we both work 12.5 hour shifts, and I have to pay a Nanny - only option) we would still get tax credits. On a combined 54k income. They would still be approx 1100 a month.

If you have high childcare costs, and earn well, you can still be entitled to receive tax credits. They aren't just for the feckless and irresponsible.

So, tax credits. Thank you for allowing this midwife to still care for pregnant women and their families. Thank you for making sure my own children didn't suffer while I did this. And thank you for this few years of my life, to allow me to keep a career that has 30 years of paying in (and receiving nothing) to give back.