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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think friends are being over-senstive?

999 replies

pomadas87 · 20/02/2017 18:51

A friend (who lives abroad) messaged me and a couple of our good mutual friends - he shared happy news of his new baby and some pics. Everyone v excited and wished him congratulations!

He then said "so who's next to have a baby - she needs a playmate!" ... me and DH are newly married and are getting the question quite a lot...! Other friend said "I'm looking at you guys" (meaning me and DH)...

I then said "not for a while I'm afraid Grin why don't you have another one straightaway and you'll have Irish Twins - instant playmate!"

Meant it in a joking way and then they all called me a racist, xenophobe etc.... I didn't realise it was offensive and now I'm feeling shitty! Did they overreact to my (stupid) joke or am I just an idiot?! Confused

OP posts:
dingdongthewitchisdead1 · 21/02/2017 20:08

One with the force... why is it a funny use of the word fact???

MadMags · 21/02/2017 20:49

The thread moved on to a more general discussion. If that isn't obvious we'll, I'm not sure I can help you. Confused

Bambilovespizza · 21/02/2017 20:51

I'm Irish..not one bit offended! In Ireland that is in no way an insult or a bad thing

Ballyhoobird · 21/02/2017 21:22

Never heard the phase irish twins before this thread but got what it meant straight away and made me Confused enough that I'd not use it now that I do know it. Cos it's obviously derogatory about the Irish.

Then read the comment about "throwing a paddy" and thought wtf, nothing wrong with that, clearly not derogatory to the Irish, just a phrase, nothing to do with Irish people - because this is a phrase I grew up with and use every day, usually about or to my children... so I Googled it (origin unclear and I suppose I should now try to refrain from using it in case it does cause offense) - good to see a mumsnet Aibu thread from 2012 up near the top of the search results Grin. Wasn't it all very different 5 years ago! Can't quite describe the difference in feel that comes across - somehow the slanging matches seem more personal but but at the same time less aggressive tHan now. And worraliberty lol'ed.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 21:37

why is it a funny use of the word fact???

Because a fact is something that exists.

dingdongthewitchisdead1 · 21/02/2017 21:53

Force... babies born within a year of each other exist! Where I come from, and in many parts of the world, they are affectionately known as Irish twins. That is factual.

catwrangler · 21/02/2017 22:03

Am I going mad or is this an old thread that has somehow been reposted with new dates and times? I'm absolutely positive that I read it last year! Confused

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 22:16

babies born within a year of each other exist!

Of course they do. My father has two siblings born 10 months each side of him.

and in many parts of the world, they are affectionately known as Irish twins. That is factual.

I don't doubt that they are referred to both affectionately and derogatorily as "Irish twins". I believe you that it is a fact that this phrase is used.

What isn't a fact is that you are an Irish twin. You are Irish, yes, but unless you occupied your mother's uterus at the same time as your sibling then you are not a twin, you are a sibling. Just like a sibling born 14 months after another. It is simply factually inaccurate to describe yourself as a twin of any kind unless you actually are one.

Gwenhwyfar · 21/02/2017 22:22

"The thread moved on to a more general discussion. If that isn't obvious we'll, I'm not sure I can help you. confused"

No, the thread is still about using the expression "Irish twins".
There is still a discussion about whether it's offensive or not - just look at the comments above mine.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 22:27

Oh come on One you do understand that words and meanings evolve over time and vernacular phrases (for example) can take on meanings beyond the individual word components of that phrase?

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 22:30

For example couch potato, if I called you one would you choose to argue that you are neither a couch nor a potato, or might you instead choose to argue with the meaning that you know that phrase has evolved to encompass?

dingdongthewitchisdead1 · 21/02/2017 22:30

Oh bore off force Biscuit

Catlady1976 · 21/02/2017 22:42

I did say or descend from such a person. It was my grandfather who lived here and faced alot of prejudice.
Tbh the op has long gone and has apologized. The thread now seems to be less directed at op but more general opinion re certain phrases.
In my adult life I have heard phrases such as
Irish twins
A bit Irish
The captain is Irish. That's a worry
I personally find it unpleasant but my views are probably clouded by the even greater prejudice faced by my parents and grandparents.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 23:10

Infinity. As far as I know the meaning of the word "fact" has not changed to include "pretendy made up derogatory terms some people find cute" or are we working with 'alternative facts' now on MN?

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 23:36

As far as I know the meaning of the word "fact" has not changed to include "pretendy made up derogatory terms some people find cute

Well clearly you aren't interested in anyone else's point of view. I've tried to explain mine, which is that the phrase may have had offensive origins but over time has evolved so now, when used by Irish people at least, it acts as shorthand for siblings born within a year of each other. Such is the nature of words and phrases, they evolve and their meaning can be heavily influenced by the context in which they are used.

You don't feel the same way, fair enough, but I don't see the need to be insulting about it. Words and phrases cannot be said to have one fixed meaning that never changes, that's not in the nature of language which is always evolving. You can stick to your 'fact' approach all you like but it isn't really applicable in this context. In fact Wink like it or not the phrase evolved because it actually was a common phenomenon in Irish families and while it may have originally been used with the intent to offend, that's not how it is used now in Ireland at least.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 23:42

Oh dear. It wasn't a "phenomenon" in Irish families! It was the consequence of years of oppression of women under the Catholic Church (that still exists BTW- women are still not able to control their own fertility in Ireland) that was used as a stick by the English to ridicule the Irish. Whether you like it or not.

that the phrase may have had offensive origins

The phrase still has offensive origins. The origins don't change with the passing of time. Whether you like it or not.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 23:55

Fair enough, drop the had from that sentence. Although no one can be sure exactly where it originated, it certainly seems the most likely explanation. But the phrase and it's usage in Ireland is now simple shorthand would you not agree?

There's no need to be so patronising by the way. I'm perfectly aware of the reason large families were common in Ireland. I can only assume you are viewing yourself as morally superior to the majority of us on this thread who aren't offended, too stupid to know our history so you need to point out how obtuse we are all being, but you might want to knock yourself down a peg or two and realise that we aren't automatically offended because we recognise the importance of context.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 23:57

And with that I'm off to bed. This argument is becoming a somewhat circular and I doubt we will end up agreeing no matter how long we debate it.

OneWithTheForce · 22/02/2017 00:11

Grin how very convenient that you would decide to go to bed immediately after throwing such a comment at me.

I'll respond anyway.

But the phrase and it's usage in Ireland is now simple shorthand would you not agree?

Yes, it is shorthand in Ireland. As I said way upthread, I don't have an issue with Irish people using it about themselves or other Irish people because, as has been explained, the context is very different than were it coming from an English person. The offense I find in it is not in its use by Irish people, again, as I have said. This does not mean I am wrong to find it offensive when used by someone who isn't Irish. This does not mean it's origins aren't what they are, this does not change the fact that siblings born from different pregnancies are not twins. The term is factually inaccurate.

I can only assume you are viewing yourself as morally superior to the majority of us on this thread who aren't offended, too stupid to know our history so you need to point out how obtuse we are all being

Well you can assume, and be wrong if you wish. I find it extremely frustrating to see people be dismissive of and deny the offensive origins of phrases like this. Some Irish people actually dont know the origins of this and/or other phrases. Some people on this thread. If people don't care that's up to them, but they don't get to decide that other people are wrong to be offended because they aren't.

we aren't automatically offended because we recognise the importance of context.

And like I have already explained specifically to you several ties on this thread, it's the context that makes it offensive to me. You just value a different context than I do.

InfinityPlusOne · 22/02/2017 01:01

how very convenient that you would decide to go to bed immediately after throwing such a comment at me

Oh for goodness sake I do have to sleep at some point and after going back and forth with you enough to realise we aren't going to agree, I decided to prioritise sleep over a fairly inconsequential debate on Mumsnet. The only reason I'm here now is the baby has decided she doesn't feel the same way about sleep and she's in my arms dozing. Every time I try and put her down she screams blue murder (*disclaimer - she is neither blue nor is any murder being committed - well you can't be too careful can you). So I'm back wasting time on Mumsnet.

You are very hung up on the 'factual' basis for the term which I've already pointed out is a bit pointless. It is common for phrases to not mean exactly what their constituent words mean, that doesn't render the phrase meaningless - couch potato, bees knees, dogs dinner etc etc. The phrase Irish twins describes what was and is a real occurrence, the relative frequency of having children born within the same year. It could have been said about any majority Catholic country at the time I'm sure. You can get hung up on the twins part all you want but I don't see the point.

My final thoughts for tonight, you can be as offended as you like at the phrase, but we dont all feel the same way, so I don't think it's fair to imply other posters are therefore ignorant and clearly must not know the origins. Even when we do know them, we aren't obliged to find it's current usage offensive whether you like it or not.

SnipSnipMrBurgess · 22/02/2017 01:05

Well just to throw it in there. I'm irish and I don't like it. I find it sneering more so than xenophobic. In the same vein as "a bit irish".

OneWithTheForce · 22/02/2017 01:18

*decided to prioritise sleep over a fairly inconsequential debate on

But not before tossing that particularly arsey post at me Wink

which I've already pointed out is a bit pointless.

Opinion. Not fact

It could have been said about any majority Catholic country at the time I'm sure.

Indeed, and if it had been under the same context it would have been exactly as offensive.

You can get hung up on the twins part all you want but I don't see the point.

That's ok. You don't have to.

I don't think it's fair to imply other posters are therefore ignorant and clearly must not know the origins

I didn't. Some people have however posted that they didn't know the origins.

we aren't obliged to find it's current usage offensive whether you like it or not.

That was never my concern. My concern was people stating it wasn't offensive. It is to me.

ElvishArchdruid · 22/02/2017 01:23

Being Irish I don't find the joke funny either. People have no idea the shit we have to put up with and smile. Go on say 33 one last time - NO! So yes it was offensive.

InfinityPlusOne · 22/02/2017 01:28

I don't really think you are in a position to talk about arsey posts One.

Not much written here is actual fact, not even your posts, it's mostly opinion.

Some posters don't find the phrase offensive, you do. You may feel some posters have implied you have no right to feel offended, I certainly feel you've been implying they are wrong not to be.

OneWithTheForce · 22/02/2017 01:52

You may feel some posters have implied you have no right to feel offended

Not implied. Said outright. Repeatedly.

There are facts in my posts. (Definition of a twin for starters) Whether you choose to believe them is up to you.

I certainly feel you've been implying they are wrong not to be.

I haven't.