To ask whether you would judge someone who did not live with their children due to SS?

[SharkiraSharkira]

Assuming you only knew this and no other information about the situation? Would you automatically judge that they had done something wrong?

Just curious as there have been a few SS related threads recently and it's aroused my curiosity.

As a foster carer I know there are a million different reasons why children are removed by SS. So no I would not judge. I also have to find the positive when talking to the children about their families, sometimes difficult, sometimes not so.

There are many reasons why SS may remove someone's children. So no. I wouldn't judge.

Op the bruise triggered an investigation but more often than not these things reveal other concerns. Sounds like the social workers were very thorough here but sadly that takes time - there are many families to investigate, lots of paperwork and lots of statutory visits to be carried out.

It's amazing how many posts refer to 'she' and 'motherhood' as the OP has not referred to if the parent is male or female (until the start talking about a friend situation further down the page)

I would think that she was unwilling, unable or not allowed to look after them. You can't really judge if you don't know the particulars. It's never going to be a glowing reference for someone though.

Well... Yes I probably would. What else would you do? People get their children taken away because they're inadequate and can't protect them from danger.

My judging wouldn't really change anything which is why I find the question odd. Why shouldn't I judge?

SavannahLevine you're right to identify some of the complexity, I think. Often people give their DC up voluntarily to begin with then it becomes really hard to get them back.

I have a friend whose DNs have ended up living with her. It's a sad story- her sister died suddenly and her BIL had serious but up til then well-controlled clinical depression (had been nothing but a good dad) however went to bits after his wife died and ended up in hospital for nearly a year. The kids went to live with my friend under a guardianship type arrangement (I think) and are still there years on- if it wasn't for her they'd have gone to foster care but her BIL still can't get them back living with him full time, they just go to him 1 or 2 nights. There was never any question of abuse etc.

She has actually suggested they pool resources and all move in together (she has 2 DC with DH who gets on well with BIL) but SS have said that's a terrible idea!

I am now much more circumspect about SS decision-making processes and don't think I'd immediately judge in future.

I have worked in MH. I would probably feel sorry for someone missing their children if they had, had them removed but I wouldn't automatically think of abuse. MH issues, addiction (and the two can be classed as a dual diagnosis and go hand in hand) physical disability, domestic violence and learning difficulties would probably cross my mind first.

I may be biased due to working in that area.

I imagine 99% of the time SS do get it right?

Such a difficult one really. My first thought was yes, I would judge. But then, thinking about it in more depth, and reading some stories on this thread I can't help but feel that somehow the system has failed them.

And, that no one is perfect. If SS want to pick apart your parenting, tear holes in it, render you an un fit parent, they will and it could happen to most of us. That in itself is scary.

I think it was more a question of, would you be able to maintain a relationship/friendship with someone who had this situation trainspotting. As in, would your judgement of them affect your potential relationship? As I stated, the woman that I knew had a terrible time making any new friends as most people judged her about it without taking the time to get to know her. I was curious as to whether she was just unlucky or if this view is more universal.

Definitely agree chit.

I used to work with a woman who had left her kids with their dad and was the NRP. I was one of the few women (in a mostly female workplace) who would speak to her at all. She didn't really go into a lot of detail, but it sounded as if she had had some kind of breakdown/MH issues and walked away.

Given the level of judging in that situation, I'd think no one in that place would have spoken to someone who had kids removed by SS.

I wouldn't judge

I know someone whose children were removed from her care, one lived with her grandmother and the younger one was adopted out aged 5

I don't know all the details, but this woman still lives a very chaotic lifestyle, never any money for food, bills and rent, so much so that she was evicted, but took no responsibility for anything at all

Her elder daughter still lives with the grandmother and they do have contact

I would not judge and I would not ask. It is never going to be a nice story and it's theirs to tell not mine to pry into.

I would probably assume SS were probably right to remove the children.

Even if they were it doesn't always mean the person you know is guilty. I have a friend who almost lost their child due to an injury caused by the now ex partner. Partner pleaded innocent for months on end. If they hadn't come clean at the last minute my friend would have lost the child through no fault of theirs. Don't assume anything.

Erm. I don't judge my SIL who had her children removed. I do however just my MIL massively - particularly as she's the one that SS deemed fit enough to bring them up instead..(SS are also idiots apparently)

The very women who let SIL down in the first place and 'produced' such an unfit mother into society.

And trust me, some serious shit needs to go down before your kids are removed ime.

History will repeat itself. 100% certain on that one.

I would and I have judged parents of dcs who have ended up in care.

I know a couple. The dcs involved have struggled with it. The dm of 2 of the dcs refused to allow them to be adopted by their foster parents. The foster parents were the aunt and uncle. They subsequently seperated and ss wouldn't allow them to continue to foster so the dd (aged 13, been with her aunt since 12 months old) ended up in a childrens home. Poor kid.

If the foster parents had been allowed to adopt she would never have ended up in care. The biological mother wouldn't allow the adoption to go through as she would eventually sort her addictions out. She had been a herion addict for 18 years by this point.

Another dm had her dcs removed because she was in and out of various dv situations. Different bfs over a period of 5 years. I judge someone who puts their needs above their dcs needs. I judge the men she was involved with and the society that let her down but I judge her for not keeping her dcs safe.

I wouldn't judge anyone whose situation I didn't know.

Shakira my best friend lost her two children (rightly) because of alcoholism. It was before I met her, I couldn't judge her more then she judged herself.

Her life story is completely tragic and not for me to share, think making the news tragic.

She's probably sober the most generous person I know. Sober I would completely trust her with my DD's (They love her)

Unfortunately she's on the drink again and likely will be dead before this years out. I don't let my DD's see her when she's drunk or drinking so I suppose I am judging her in a way.

Not her personally just her behaviour when intoxicated. Her relapsing has broke me and her DC's hearts.

That's a terrible shame unborn. I can't pretend to know how hard it is to battle addiction. I hope she gets better.

Skippii do you think that is fair? Should she be punished for that the rest of her life? Obviously I don't know her circumstances but if she felt she had good reasons then it doesn't seem right that no one will speak to her just because she doesn't live with her children. Men do it all the time!

I do also think it depends where you are in the country OP , if you live in a population dense area where there are 500 plus families living with addiction issues I would imagine that the trigger point for removal is going to drop , there are only limited resources .

It depends on what you mean by "judging" them. I wouldn't decide that they were a bad person if I didn't know the circumstances but unless they were obviously unable to care for their children because of illness/disability, I would definitely be wary and therefore wouldn't make friends. DH was brought up by extended members of his family because his mother was an alcoholic and neglectful I certainly "judged" her for it.

"would you be able to maintain a relationship/friendship with someone who had this situation"

Weirdly, with the relative I know that has had her children taken away, it's her that doesn't want a relationship with the rest of the family.

I don't know if it's shame or denial, but for a long time now she's only mixed with fellow service users who also have a vested interest in maintaining that they are the victims in their own lives.

But yes- obviously it's changed my view of her since the forced adoption was finalised. It was actually really fucking difficult for us to see her change, and to stop giving any semblance of a shit, and to accept that the little girl we'd seen grow up had become the person she eventually became.

I really thought she'd pull it together in the end and keep the kids together, but.... she couldn't or wouldn't. Some people just aren't capable of empathy or thinking about anyone but themselves.

If SS want to pick apart your parenting, tear holes in it, render you an un fit parent, they will and it could happen to most of us. That in itself is scary.
I'm not so sure about this. SS are so stretched. I know loads of families that 'don't meet the threshold' who I think need the guidance, and the families who are under SS (as in kids being CIN or CP plan) are in pretty dire situations, often with well meaning parents but who aren't keeping their kids safe. I really can't see them having the time or motivations to harass families unnecessarily. Maybe I am biased, but I know families who've had their kids removed yet post a totally different story on Facebook and having lots of visible support from friends, yet we know the kids are still neglected and still producing positive Class A drug samples etc.

Tabbylady thats exactly what happened with my friend. Police turned up at her home and escorted her and her dd to hospital. SS turned up. Police hung around, and it was made clear to friend she wouldn't be allowed to leave with her dd. DD was checked, no evidence of abuse found, but SS weren't happy and gave friend the ultimatum.

Friend was concerned that as her dd has SN, she would find it incredibly difficult to be in foster care, and she was worried they wouldn't know how to care for her properly. So friend voluntarily agreed to her sister taking her dd, with friend having supervised visits in a contact centre.

Friend was under the impression that it would only be for a couple of days, but SS went to court, and got some sort of order (I don't now what exactly), that meant that friend couldn't get her dd back without a court hearing.

The hearing kept getting delayed, as SS were preparing reports, didn't have the necessary evidence etc, during this time friend voluntarily attended several courses suggested by SS, as her solicitor said it would help her get her dd back.

It took 6 months to get a court date, at which point SW turned up in court and said there were no concerns about the mother, and they had no objection to the order being overturned and the dd being returned to her.

I don't think the fact they've had their children removed in themselves would affect our relationship, I suppose it depends on the behaviour around it

Yes I think that would definitely effect my opinion trainspotting. If they had not changed, were unapologetic and blamed everyone else it would be very different to if they were accepting of their mistakes and currently endeavouring to do their best for the dc.