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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To really wish someone other than Tony Blair had asked us to rise up against brexit?

323 replies

DeviTheGaelet · 17/02/2017 14:57

Can't see a thread about this. And yes I know there is a brexit topic but I wanted to post in AIBU to see what people thought. If you don't want to read about brexit and have no opinion click away now.
Tony Blair is urging remainers to rise up against brexit because we didn't know what we were voting for and it's going to be disastrous for the country.
I totally agree it's a disaster and I think it's shocking we can plunge into the unknown when only just over 50% of voters voted for it in an advisory referendum with a campaign based on lies. I've been desperate for a political party to get behind on a remain ticket.
But why the fuck does it have to be Tony Blair, the man who totally ignored strong public feeling on Iraq who says this? Where are the opposition in parliament?

OP posts:
Original poster
DeviTheGaelet · 17/02/2017 19:22

If you think we should have a revote until we get the result you want then tony blair or any other idiot should be ensconed as dictator because either we live in a democracy or we dont!
Hmmmmm don't think you fully understand what democracy means. We vote for MPS to decide for us as proxies. They are not bound to represent the majority view of their constituents although many do as the recent A50 vote shows.
What I would've liked is for DC to say he thought the decision was bad for the country, and the referendum was advisory only and so he wouldn't implement it. Then no doubt we would have had a vote of no confidence and a GE but at least we would get a say on the type of brexit, if any.
The Theresa May dictator scenario is bullshit.
Anyway I agree with Blair, loathe him though.

OP posts:
flapjackfairy · 17/02/2017 19:23

Does everybody in the nation understand all the issues involved in any election.
Did all remainers completely understand it all??
That is a ridiculous argument!

Doobigetta · 17/02/2017 19:23

I don't disagree, OP. I thought his speech was fantastic, really inspiring and it gave me hope to hear someone be so unequivocal about fighting our corner. But I'm really worried that he is too tainted. I think this will make it or break it for us.

I got completely savaged for saying so on the Remain Facebook groups, though.

RortyCrankle · 17/02/2017 19:23

I don't give a fuck who 'rises up' (what does that even mean?). It's totally irrelevant and pointless and that also goes for the march next month. I'm exceedingly pleased that Brexit WILL happen.

PS Blair is a war criminal who belongs in prison so he should be keeping his mouth shut)

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 17/02/2017 19:23

surprising how he and AC manipulated the press

It scares me to think how bad he really is if all we've seen is what they want us to see...

flapjackfairy · 17/02/2017 19:28

Broken of course you have the right to disagree and express your opinion.
But what people dont have the right to do is to say we should overturn the democratic process because they dont like the result as some are doing.

larrygrylls · 17/02/2017 19:30

Tony Blair promised in 2005 to hold a referendum on the EU constitution which had already been rejected by France. In 2007 the EU proposed the Lisbon Treaty which was almost identical to the rejected constitution.

In my opinion Blair's failure to offer a referendum on this, or even honestly engage with it, was a leading cause of Cameron offering us the recent referendum and many people voting leave.

If you are a leaver Blair leading a charge to overthrow the referendum must be balm to your ears. Does he never realise how much his money grabbing and arrogant demeanour has alienated him from the vast majority of the electorate.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 17/02/2017 19:31

And no!!!! NO!!!!! I will not accept the vote. It's not the 'will of the people'.

Yes it is Elendon.

Its the will of some of the people

I like the word some, people dont use it enough in my opinion

Brokenbiscuit · 17/02/2017 19:32

But what people dont have the right to do is to say we should overturn the democratic process because they dont like the result as some are doing.

Actually, people have every right to argue for a second referendum if they believe that that's the right thing to do. Farage made it very clear that he wouldn't accept a remain vote if it was a very small majority.

I don't necessarily want a second referendum so I'm not arguing for that, but if that's what others want, then it isn't illegal or anti-democratic for them to say so.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 17/02/2017 19:33

Agree with broken

AllThePrettySeahorses · 17/02/2017 19:41

If there had been a referendum on the Iraq War, especially based on the information that Blair was genuinely given and had good reason to believe (after all, Hussein had used WMDs to slaughter thousands of his own people i.e. Sarin gas), people would have voted overwhelmingly in favour. But now it seems everyone was always against it because it's trendy to paint Blair as a hate figure.

Anyway, YABU and YANBU. We desperately need someone to challenge the disastrous Brexit plans - they must be scrutinised and amended even if they can't be blocked. Sadly, Corbyn will just wave it all through.

ExplodedCloud · 17/02/2017 20:06

I think the people who marched against the Iraq war were against it at the time. I don't recall anyone I knew at the time thinking it was a great idea either. Except for some US voters convinced it was Iraqis who had attacked the Twin Towers.

Aderyn2016 · 17/02/2017 20:13

Blair took us to war on a lie. That bit is kind of important!

If the vote on Brexit had gone the other way, yes Farage would still be kicking off but everyone would be telling him to stfu - that the people had had their say and he should accept the result.

Like it or not the leave vote was the majority view - you can say it was the view of some of the people but really it was the view of more than half of those who voted. The 28% who cba, in not voting, agreed to accept whatever the result was.

I also don't agree that MPs are proxies whose job it is to decide for us. Imo they are there to represent, not dictate and where a majority opinion has been expressed, they have a moral obligation to honour that.

TeacupDrama · 17/02/2017 20:25

Say there was another referendum and the result was even closer say 49.8% to 50.2% if it was just remain would that settle it or could the leave say we need a third referendum, if leave won again but by this smaller majority what then???Would it be leave as they won twice even though majority was tiny, could you truly say it was the will of the people to remain if the majority was so tiny. Personally I think 50% plus one is fine for an MP or MSP but not for a referendum, Nicola Sturgeon was adamant before Scottish indy ref that 50% plus one was enough, however l think she would have had great problems persuading EU or UN that one vote more in favour was legitimate for recognition as a separate independent country, there has certainly been a great reluctance at UN e en to think a 60/40 split is that decisive.

AllThePrettySeahorses · 17/02/2017 20:35

It wasn't Blair's lie that took us to war - it was flawed intelligence. War in Iraq was inevitable anyway as the Chilcot report found. And yes, a million people marched and millions more were against the war, but they were a relatively small minority.

Aderyn2016 · 17/02/2017 20:42

Disagree. Blair knew there were no wmd. He was just arrogant enough to think he could tell us any old shit and never be challenged.

20nil · 17/02/2017 20:51

Whatever we all think about Blair ( l left the Party for years over Iraq), his speech today shows two things:

  1. The appalling state of the leadership of the remain campaign (thanks Jeremy).
  1. His breathtaking arrogance in thinking he could possibly change anyone's mind. Most remainers, even those who like him, will find his intervention difficult to stomach for a variety of mostly valid reasons. Brexiters will froth.
20nil · 17/02/2017 20:53

Aderyn: so, Robin Cook shouldn't have opposed the Iraq War?

Original poster
DeviTheGaelet · 17/02/2017 21:13

I've been convinced about brexit by this
whybrexitisgreat.co.uk/

OP posts:
cardibach · 17/02/2017 21:23

A lot of what people say about all this confuses me.

  1. Corbyn delivered the biggest proportion of any party support group to vote remain. He failed nobody. He is ambivalent about the EU but feels we would be better off changing it from within. Is this too nuanced and realistic a view?
  2. I don't like Blair, he's a red Tory, but he isn't a war criminal. What he did was entirely within the law and supported by Parliament and the international political and military community. I disagreed with it, but that doesn't make it illegal.

There's more, but those are the main things. I really, really, don't like Blair and wish someone else was saying this (ideally Corbyn, who I still support - I just don't understand his actions at the moment) but he's not wrong.

DrDreReturns · 17/02/2017 21:24

Well I think a second referendum would be a total waste of time as the result would be the same. I voted remain, but we've just got to get on with it now.
None of the leavers I know have changed their minds.

Brokenbiscuit · 17/02/2017 21:33

I agree DrDre, I don't think a second referendum would change anything - not at the moment, anyway. Perhaps it might when we know what the exact terms of Brexit are going to be, but not at the moment.

However, I still think people have the right to campaign for a second referendum if they choose to do so.

None of us have to "get over" the result, regardless of what many leavers may say. It would be anti-democratic to pretend that the leave vote never happened. It isn't anti-democratic, however, to believe that the majority made the wrong decision.

CussingQuim · 17/02/2017 21:35

A lot of "leavers" think we've already left and can't understand why anyone would have a problem, after all, everything's still going isn't it?

We are all screwed, because a lot of rich public school twats led a campaign with absolutely no plan or clue what to do or what it would entail. Because some rich people saw a chance to get richer. Because the far right is on the rise and a bunch of savage racists saw a chance to be isolationist. And sadly because a lot of desperate and elderly people voted for a bunch of lies.

And don't tell me that people knew what they were voting for with this process - their LEADERS didn't, and still don't, so how could they?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 17/02/2017 21:38

Well it's headline news there won't be a second referendum the EU have made it quite clear they want us to get on with things they are not going to hang about for us there are other very big issues going on

But what I am hoping it will bring about is the all parties have more of a say there should be cross party negotiations and an alternative proposal why isn't there

Blair is doing what that fucking useless lazy idoit Corbyn should be doing challenging the governments plans

So good on him though I very much doubt Blair giving this speech from the city will change any leavers opinions but it might give a kick up the arse to some MP's

PickAChew · 17/02/2017 21:42

Anyone else thing that he was trying to sound a bit street, a bit man of the people, when he made that speech?

His accent and tone of voice was just odd!