AIBU to ask this about c sections...

[pizzafrenchfries]

So I have another post on here related to a yoga teacher and a debate on c sections and bonding but after speaking to a few other mums in real life I would really like to know...

My son was born by an emergency c section. I was conscious but it all happened very quickly... anyway.... after the birth people constantly asked: 'were you ok with that?' (Having the c section) as if it was an option... my ex yoga teacher implied it would restrict on bonding, and now a few of the mums at one of the mums groups i go to have said a few times about how if you give birth bu c section you miss out on the birth/ it's harder to heal from a birth/ birth is a beautiful experience you can't share if you're having a c section etc etc.

So basically my question is am I being unreasonable to think that most of the time a c section isn't an option and so asking if you minded having one is a redundant question?! Why do people feel if it's not a vaginal birth it's not a 'proper' one or you haven't suffered enough? And do people really think (like my ex yoga teacher) that vaginal birth is the only way and are actually 'against' c sections?! If so what happens if labor doesn't progress do they honestly believe you should die?

Mimi, do you understand how evolution works?

It works through the deaths of those individuals who do not have the desirable qualities. That is what evolution is. Individuals die so the species can adapt. The problem is, that most of us actually prefer our individual babies/wives/mothers to survive. The science of medicine is, in a sense, the art of cheating evolution.

Also, as has been pointed out, if two potentially desirable qualities are mutually exclusive, then there will be an evolutionary cost.

Humans aren't the only animals that struggle with giving birth. Giraffes also have a high rate of childbirth deaths: it's the cost of having those long legs and reaching to the top of the acacia trees. Live-bearing fish are also prone to maternal death: it's the cost of giving birth to well-developed fry.

In other species of fish, a large loss of new-borns is part of the evolutionary cost of not practising childcare. In some marine species (e.g. squid), all females die after giving birth. That doesn't mean they weren't "designed" to give birth, whatever that may mean. All it means is that this, at the current stage of evolution, is where they're at.

One of my DF's regular charities is one that funds little teams who travel round Africa repairing childbirth injuries where women tear between the vagina and the rectum. They are incontinent after birth and are ostracized. They live alone outside their villages. A simple op gives them their lives back. Glorifying natural childbirth shows a lack of awareness of its dangers.

mimi my vaginal birth cost the NHS more than my section, and it will no doubt incur more costs in future... incontinence is no joke.

OhtoblazeswithElvira, I don't doubt for a second that vaginal births (and their ensuing complications) can cost a heck of a lot of money.
When I had my daughter she had to be induced and I laboured for 12 hours but dilated 1cm and by then the baby was stressed, which led to my EMCS, so that was a failed vaginal delivery. I had to wait over an hour for an anaesthetist for an initial epidural because they were busy elsewhere... and then the baby's heart rate started dipping and all of a sudden there were 13 medical staff present for the actual surgery. I can't imagine how much that would have cost. They can't be in two places at once, so do they prioritise emergencies or elective surgeries?

corythatwas, not as much as you do clearly. I haven't studied evolution and have never pondered mutually exclusive desirable qualities making "natural" chikdbirth impossible. I will read up on it though as it's a fascinating topic!

They can't be in two places at once, so do they prioritise emergencies or elective surgeries?

They always prioritise emergencies. I know people who have had their elective section put back as there has been too many emergencies. Elective sections are usually set a week or so before the due date so there should be time to reschedule.

Electives are always put back. My friend was being prep'd for her elective when an emergency came in, they wheeled her out whilst the emergency was wheeled in. There is no way you could justify delaying an emcs (which is performed under threat of death to mother or baby) for an elective.

I commented up thread that I totally bought the natural approach, lack of intervention etc and it went spectacularly wrong.

After my first horrific birth I had to have consultant care and it transpired that I have something called android pelvis. Apparently this is rare especially in this part of the world, basically very narrow pelvis, more like a man's than a womens.

The consultant told me if I had another baby I would need a section and he would do it for me.

However I moved areas and at my subsequent booking in appointment with second child I relate these findings.
I then have to endure the ridiculous midwife explaining that if only I had bounced on a birth ball I could have had an unassisted birth, lecturing me that womens bodies are designed to give birth etc it went on and on with me going from bemused to furious.

I was then referred to the midwife unit where I was assigned to a consultant midwife (very high up, well know figure) who told me she would be my champion in my birthplan.

What followed was a pregnancy that was blighted with me turning up to appointments with her and she would just not be there leaving a rather timid assistant to come and tell me my 'champion' had left the building knowing full well I was there.

They never got themselves together to get my notes from the other hospital. No one listened to me aand after months of this I was refused a section by a different bconsultant who sat behind a door two feet away from me and did not deign to speak directly to me at any point!

This continued for months and on the last appointment at 39 weeks this women again did not bother turning up to the meeting at her office and I finally lost the plot.
I could go into labour any minute and I had no plan, no one realised the danger the situation posed and I was left utterly alone spending the pregnancy going to meetings no one turned up to, being completely ignores and fighting for mine and my babies safety.

I finally was allowed to see another consultant ,only because I demanded formal complaint procedures, who immediately agreed the section.

Women are not senseless incubators to be ignored, I was very lucky in my first labour to get through and my baby survive.
I was utterly ignored in my second, treated like I was simply too scared or lazy to give birth vaginally.
It has put me off ever having another child, my dentist has more interest in my opinion and history than these people did.

I know my situation was extreme but surely not unique. I will never understand that when you are pregnant, all pretence at respecting your mind and intelligence ceases.

Opal- that is horrifying

I have had one of each. Neither were pleasant!

As I'd had both, I feel I can comment but only on my experience

Yes, with my natural birth, it felt more raw, more as 'nature intended'..overwhelmed that this little baby had come out of me and was now on my chest breathing/moving. Incredible feeling.

I didn't have this with my section at all. I struggled to bond with my son because he was just a baby lying there in a cot. Didn't feel like my baby (if that makes sense) Took months for me to bond and all I did during that time was apologise to him. (looking bad I definitely suffered from pn depression)

However. My section was awful, not a good experience in the slightest. Had it been well managed, and the baby placed on me straight afterwards I am certain I would have had the same bonding I had with my daughter!

I do sort of know where people are coming from but that makes that twats! Ignore!!! (ps son is now 2 and the love of my life!! - who cares that he wasn't a natural birth!!)

At the start of my pregnancy I was all thrilled to have conceived and convinced I wanted to have a natural birth and feel the pushes, EBF and just be a perfect mummy.

25 weeks in I am consultant led due to my BMI, have been diagnosed with GD and a low lying placenta and a section is looking more likely by the day. Tbh I no longer care as long as baby is out safely, a nice calm elective section actually sounds quite nice and am starting to think life with a newborn might be hard enough without adding FF into the mix after the first few weeks!

OP your baby came out alive and well thanks to the life saving operation you very sensibly agreed to. Yoga teacher/your friends are being careless with their words. TTFO if needs be.
It is a wonderful thing that babies and mothers dying in childbirth is so rare we as a society have "forgotten" about it.
You are totally a proper mother and you have given birth to your baby. Congratulations 😄

corythatwas, this makes for interesting reading...

www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161221-the-real-reasons-why-childbirth-is-so-painful-and-dangerous

I was booked in for a c section with dc2 due to baby position, she was transverse so no way would a vaginal birth be possible. I was sad as had a 3 year old at home and the thought of the 6 wk recovery for a cs was frightening. However the health of dc2 was the most important thing so if course agreed. We arrived on the day everything got sorted I was even gowned up when consultant did a scan at the bedside it showed dc was headdown. So I was then sent to labour ward to have my waters broke and induction by drip. It had to happen that day as there were other complications which meant me going into labour naturally would have been dangerous. To be honest I think csection is harder but would by no means make a difference to how you bond with baby. I have had 2 inductions neither labour started naturally and with my 1st many complications which resulted in baby in scbu and me having several blood transfusions. So not an ideal start to babies life. I didnt even get to hold him for long as I was in such a bad way dropping in and out of conciousness. If I'd had a csection that time I would probably have been able to hold baby straight away and for as long as I wanted. I think you do what is safest for you and baby and screw what others think

I'm a midwife. Have cared for others post vaginal birth and post section numerous of times.

In general recovery from a c-section is harder and more painful, it is major surgery after all. However some women have seriously traumatic vaginal births that have a long recovery also.

Bonding isn't affected at all. Postnatal depression can impact on bonding, traumatic birth can impact on bonding, being ill following delivery or having a baby in neonatal can impact on bonding. These things are not unique to either method of birth! And I say impact as bonding being that little bit harder due to the situation doesn't mean impossible and many mothers bond with their babies quite well, others need support.

In response you saying most c-sections you have no choice. That isn't that case, you always always have the choice! It's your body, your baby and your choice to make! Obviously few women would decline in an emergency situation but even then without your consent they don't do anything. Just remember that you are in control throught!

C-sections save lives every single day, do they really think it would have an easier recovery or improved bonding if either yourself or your baby hadn't survived a natural birth. They don't realise it's not as simple to want a natural birth, you can try your best and do everything to increase your chances of getting that birth and it still might not happen. But you grew, carried and gave birth to your baby regardless of the method and are no less a mother than anyone else!

CatchingBabies when people say there was no choice, they generally mean that it's a choice of either consent to a c section or having a seriously ill/dead baby and/or dying themselves. I don't know about you, but I don't think that's much of a choice at all, is it?

For example, my DS2 was born via EMCS at 37 weeks because he stopped moving, no movements at all despite trying all the usual tricks. He was born 3 hours after I was in hospital getting checked. I suppose I could have refused to consent to a c section and insisted on an induction but given the complication that actually had occurred, he wouldn't have survived much longer and he would have either been severely brain damaged or stillborn had I refused to consent to a c section. That really isn't a "choice".

No I agree of course it's not really choice!

It's more about women getting their own body automy back why I mention it. All day every day I hear am I allowed to do that? I'm not allowed to go to term, the comsultant told me I have to etc etc. And that's wrong!

We OFFER women services and treatment, we offer induction, we offer vaginal examinations, we even offer emergency procedures. It doesn't mean you have to take them!

Of course most do as anyone would as like you said it isn't really a choice.

But by letting women know it's your body it's your baby you are in control and you can accept or refuse anything you want isn't about encouraging people to decline life saving treatment it's just allowing women to feel more in control throughout the process. Giving them the confidence to ask for explanations etc.

That's the point I was trying to make, apologies if it came across wrong.

I'm just strong on consent and choice I suppose, it's my big bear! Even simple things "I'm just going to take some blood". That's not asking for consent? You haven't even explained to the women why she needs her bloods taken. How can she make her own choice in that situation?

And while most women will follow the standard pathway women are individuals we need to allow them to make their own choices and understand that they can ask for things or decline things. Once of the big things that comes up year and year is how women felt out of control like the became a patient not a person and decisions were made without then. That's whats going badly wrong in maternity and if we listened more, recognised that we work FOR the women to support them while the outcome may not differ they will hopefully feel more supported, less out of control and more positive following the birth.

Yeah it came across very oddly. Emergency C sections aren't usually offered as one of a choice of sensible options. To frame it as a choice is odd.

What would you actually do if a women refused consent, say for a crash section that was necessary to save her and her baby's life? Have you ever been in that position or anything similar?

Mimi, in our case it's the ability to walk upright that makes it different - the compromise is between the advantage it gives and the changes to the structure of the pelvis that it required. Our pelvis is very different from our closest relatives, the other great apes - it means that there is bony resistance as well as muscles to work around and that make birth harder.

Also human babies have heads that are much closer to the actual dimension of the birth canal. To compensate, whereas for most animals birth is a private event, across almost all cultures human women seek out support and assistance.

This is a yoga teacher who seems to have a better grip on reality than the OPs.
mikaelawapman.com/2014/07/25/why-the-long-difficult-birth-for-humans/

I think they would do it anyway. They did with me when I said no to an emcs. I had a raging high temp and sepsis by that point and wasn't really understanding the seriousness of the situation.

I had an EMCS and got moderate-severe PND, but the PND was triggered by a traumatic pregnancy, and having no support networks. I was really lucky. The CS was completely straightfoward, i had lovely doctors, I healed well physically and I don't think bonding was affected at all. But then, with all the scariness of the pregnancy itself, I felt like I bonded with her well before she was born. I think the sun shines out of her backside

For what its worth I thinm there's a lot of misconceptions and ignorance around C-sections and around PND....but people dealing with pregnant and postpartum women really should be better informed and a lot more sensitive.

I've had two c sections. One emergency, one planned. I recovered quickly from both, and bonded with my babies with no problem. Ignore people's expectations and assumptions, including your own. At the end of the day, all everyone wants is a safe delivery for the mother and baby. Focus on the outcome, rather than just the process.

It's ideological, pure and simple. The stats are actually pretty sobering on that front - both "forms" of birth have their pros and cons, of course, but there are a whole host of respects for both mother AND baby in which a planned section is measurably safer. The NICE data gives some insight into this. It does rather stand to reason - yes, an optimal and straightforward vaginal birth has advantages and presents an easier recovery, but these are not as common as we are often led to believe, and the variables are by definition less easy to predict and to control in a vaginal delivery.

Moreover, the idea that c sections should be limited on the basis that they are more expensive is bunkum as well - when you adjust for average physio costs etc, the two procedures are on a par costwise.

It is unpalatable to face, but we are badly-designed in this respect and for all manner of social and philosophical and psychosexual reasons have valorised partum suffering. It's misogynistic on multiple levels beyond the obvious - for one thing it infers that there is a level of practical achievement/skill/toughness involved in giving birth when the reality is that, in most respects, the bus drives itself after certain point. Doesn't matter if you're younger, older, weaker, stronger, scared, raring to go, lucid or barely conscious - left to it's own devices, a labouring body will squeeze that baby out or die trying.

The latter of which, lest we forget, is what actually happened a huge proportion of the time in days of yore before the advances of modern medicine.

I come from a surgical family and am told this has been discussed for quite a long time and the hushed consensus is that the absence of maternal choice in this area is not (chiefly) a financial or medical issue, but an ideological one. Some of the articles and transcripts I've read have been both enlightening and nauseating, and the implications are potentially fairly huge.