To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

Yanbu. Id have had to say something. Awful behaviour. God only knows what she does at home 😢

Mommagee mine was able to look after the baby while I rested if I wanted (I was too anxious about safety to take her up on that though)
Even them being in a different room to you for a few hours can make a difference if it's the Velcro effect draining you, so instead she played with DD in the dining room while I did the washing up. They also helped me apply for HB, so I could pay for her to go to a childminder out of my Pip while I went to therapy.
Even an afternoon at the childminder would be a start so homestart making that possible for people despite not being childcare themselves was really good. They also helped me check references etc as I was terrified of sending her to be looked after by someone else.

Oh I wasn't slaying them Rix, just read your post to imply they could abscond with them and didn't want someone getting excited at a proper hours peace and quiet haha. I tried of for a dew weeks but it didn't work. Not sure she was really cut out for a tubie baby but the organisation itself if fabulous and I'd def look at volunteering once DSVis in nursery

bulletjournal

Please don't feel sorry for my daughter, who is currently playing happily with her Lego

whilst you are ranting on the internet instead of playing with her? Actually, I do feel a bit sorry for her. Your opinions clearly don't make you the perfect parent you think you are.

Hmmm. The poster to whom you are referring is calm unlike some of the rest of you.

Rixera

hmm bullet when she wants me to join in she says 'mummy play', when she wants me to stop she says bye bye and I either hang out on the sofa behind her or tidy up a bit.
Being a good parent doesn't mean being at her side 100% of the time, nor being perfect. But to me it definitely means not screaming at her or hitting her.

This ^^

You have no idea, this is a small look into this woman's life and you have no idea what she has gone through

She has an idea of what the child went through. Which is the whole point.

All this talk about not judging parenting styles is mad. Of course we can judge parenting styles, especially when a child is unhappy or has behaviour issues. Why the hell can't we? Judging is not the same as condemning. Some parents need help or education.
Yes, we all have bad days but that doesn't mean it is ok on those days to grab, shove or hit a toddler. it is not excusable.

You can be calm and smug, but it does not make you a perfect parent and does not give you the right to judge others because you don't agree with them.

you should read the posts from HalfShellHero and LostMyDotBrain
who seem very calm but are making a lot of sense.

You can be calm and smug, but it does not make you a perfect parent and does not give you the right to judge others because you don't agree with them
Personally I dont feel smug about not hitting my child, I consider it a basic element of good parenting. I'm not sure anyone is smugly bragging about not hitting their child or saying it makes them a perfect parent.
And we all judge. Whether its the dad feeding his 12 mo Gregg's or the dresses at award shows showing some starlets foofoo. Its human nature to look, see and make a judgement to infprm your own actions and views. The difference is hpe you act on it.
Seeing something ypu consider abusive is emotionally hard and talking through that experience is perfectly normal. Standing up, hitting her with the tray and kidnapping the toddler not so much

Gottagetmoving

You have no idea, this is a small look into this woman's life and you have no idea what she has gone through

She has an idea of what the child went through. Which is the whole point.

All this talk about not judging parenting styles is mad. Of course we can judge parenting styles, especially when a child is unhappy or has behaviour issues. Why the hell can't we? Judging is not the same as condemning. Some parents need help or education.
Yes, we all have bad days but that doesn't mean it is ok on those days to grab, shove or hit a toddler. it is not excusable.

Absolutely.

Yes but bullet you literally just judged me as being smug and said you felt sorry for my daughter while castigating those who judge.

Also I don't care about where she comes from or what her background is, this will be her child's background. No child should have to grow up with violence, there is no excuse, no day bad enough to make it alright.

Thanks Cara.
Also mommagee think we just got wires crossed, I thought you meant they only gave advice! Hope everything okay now though :)

Bullet 'You can be calm and smug, but it does not make you a perfect parent and does not give you the right to judge others because you don't agree with them.'

Says the only poster who has taken their own judgement to the extreme of directly dissing a Mother who she doesn't know and lambasting them with 2 clear personal attacks including 'pitying' their child.

The irony

Again, you are confusing parenting and child abuse. A small smack to a child doesn't mean you act in temper for a start.

Yes I am judging you Rixera, and others, pretending that you are perfect, have never ever lost your temper and are only softly speaking to your child with a smile from the minute he was born. How likely is that?

On paper, you might grab your toddler who run away and that you caught a microsecond before he got run over by a lorry, shake your head and lecture him about the dangers of road traffic. In real life? And even if you are so saintly, it does not give you the right to judge a mother who reacts in fear and shouts at him because she is so shaken. Either you are smug, or you are an hypocrite.

IwasAM
The difference is that I have never said or implied that I, or my children, were perfect. I am just mocking the perfect posters who are making judgments whilst demonstrating bad parenting themselves. Oh the irony.

*hmm bullet when she wants me to join in she says 'mummy play', when she wants me to stop she says bye bye and I either hang out on the sofa behind her or tidy up a bit.
Being a good parent doesn't mean being at her side 100% of the time, nor being perfect. But to me it definitely means not screaming at her or hitting her.
*

I second this too. I don't think a child should be removed because of a single meltdown moment from the mum (especially because social care can be even more horrendous) but this shouldn't be casual behaviour or everyday parenting from anyone.

Whatever else is going on in your life and however challenging your children are being you should at least attempt not to inflict long term emotional harm - and though what this mum did was legal if she does it regularly it will cause long term harm. Obviously judging her doesn't help but I think it does help to accept that even though we're all less than perfect sometimes this behaviour towards a child isn't acceptable.

bullet you are judging while denouncing judging....THAT is ironic.

I haven't seen anyone on here on either side of the argument declare they believe they are perfect parents....so you are also fabricating strawmen on an industrial scale. This isn't ironic...but it is pointless and annoying (unless the point is to annoy in which case it is trolling).

HTH

Bullet I can absolutely concur with the fact that nothing you have said on here implies you to be a perfect parent or person.

Ditto can also absolutely concur that you were/are being mocking.

Again, the irony.

Good grief this is getting silly. Stop the personal attacks please.
All this, if you are on MN, you are ignoring, thus not playing, pity your child, is nonsense.

The difference is that I have never said or implied that I, or my children, were perfect. I am just mocking the perfect posters who are making judgments whilst demonstrating bad parenting themselves. have you got a single example where any one has claimed to be perfect or anyone who's demonstrated bad parenting on here let alone both together? Or just people refusing to condone casual violence

Oh dear god, people!

You sound like you're exaggerating tbh, idont know what it is but your post sounds weird

"of course we can judge parenting styles, especially if a child is unhappy or has behaviour issues"
Only if you see the parent doing something wrong and not just because you have seen a child distressed or behaving in a difficult way.

Only if you see the parent doing something wrong and not just because you have seen a child distressed or behaving in a difficult way

Well of course you can't judge a parenting style unless you observe it.

Only if you see the parent doing something wrong

Perhaps something like Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about" ??

And as an aside I particularly hate that comment. He clearly has something to cry about she he wouldnt be crying

I have no clue what I would have done in that situation although I know that, as described in the OP, to me it would have felt deeply wrong; I cannot abide violence of any form including, funnily enough, a 'slap' to a kid (especially to a kid actually, and I've never ever seen a child's behaviour improve as a result of being walloped either)

No matter how uncomfortable I felt, I suspect I wouldn't know what to do or say and would be fearful it could escalate (esp. if had my own DC with me as OP did).

I hope someone who maybe has professional expertise comes along and advises us on what we should/could do if we saw a situation that genuinely looked 'over the line' (although even that's tricky given it's apparent just from this thread that many of us have our own - wildly varying - 'lines' vis what constitutes abusive behaviour and what doesn't).

Absolutely none of your business.