To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

You're making a lot of assumptions about my background there GoesDown. What makes you think I've never been to an immunology conference? You're also making a lot of assumptions about immunologists, not least that they all speak with one voice and that there is one 'answer' to whether/how to vaccinate with a given vaccine for all situations. Generally, immunologists (and scientists in general) are very happy to discuss different hypotheses, so I suspect it would be an interesting debate.

Mega, which disease are you talking about with the 1 in 50 morbidity rate?

You seem to be assuming that all Drs are very well read on the topic of vaccinations

Where does that come from, YouCannot? The sentence you quote specifically refers to the body of doctors and scientists in the relevant field.

You also seem to be assuming that all vaccines are basically the same in terms of effectiveness, safety, mechanism of action and necessity

Again, where do you get that from? I haven't said anything of the sort.

This discussion will get nowhere if people start misrepresenting what others are saying.

Sorry, I thought I had said that those statistics relate to measles.

If you have actual experience that makes your input worthwhile then good for you. Nothing you've put on here suggests that you do, but I can easily see why you might want to keep actual real life skills quiet online.

BUT MOST PEOPLE DO NOT. which is why DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH is such a dumb thing to tell people as global advice.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult!

I apologise if I misunderstood you Mimi. Your quote referred to every Dr advocating vaccination, which I took to mean essentially all Drs, as I've never met one that didn't recommend vaccination. I was merely pointing out that many Drs (in general) aren't that well read on the topic.

The second point was more of a generic observation about the thread, which I think is treating the issue in an oversimplified manner. I actually agree with the general consensus that things like the Measles and WC vaccine are definitely worth it in the vast majority of cases, but there is a lot of room for debate on whether other vaccines (like rotarix) are beneficial and whether the schedule should be extended or more flexible. There are lots of issues around this topic without one clear answer, and the official advice doesn't tell that story, so blindly deferring to experts should be done with caution I think.

So do you do that in relation to every decision relating to your child's wellbeing? Do you do in-depth research before doing your shopping, before buying something in a restaurant, before accepting a lift in a car or getting on to a plane? Or do you at some point decide you have to trust other people who are trained to know what they are doing?

Yes, unfortunately my daughter has multiple severe food allergies, so we can't eat in restaurants unless we bring her own food, and I can't buy any food without scrutinising the ingredients. She's so far never been on a plane but we'd have to make sure there were no peanuts onboard etc.

goes yep, the idea that every person googling vaccine safety happens to have done an advanced statistics course is marginally more laughable than the idea that none of them have.

Neither is true of course, some have, but most really really haven't.

I am very happy for the minority who have the skills to read papers to investigate and come to their own conclusions. I am very unhappy for them to assume they are in the majority and tell the world in general to ignore the experts.

Only 1/7 ish people do A-level maths, even less do biology A-level, or the other sciences that might give you the required grounding to interpret the data at the level the NICE panel can.

Who has told anyone to ignore experts?

Who are the experts? NOT GP's and general paeds. They know the official dept of health line and not much else. If you have a question that strays beyond the very basic (that you could probably find out by reading the package insert) then TBH you're not going to get that answered by a paed or GP.

I have lots of questions that the specialists cannot answer as well (as as mentioned - senior doctors are quite happy to tell you they don't know) - because there is no research.

If you want actual experts then your best bet is to find the people researching the very narrow question you have & ask them directly. Face to face is great (you tend to get a more useful answer than you find in publications) but many are happy to discuss by email. I used to enjoy attending (& presenting at) conferences but have been house bound for the last couple of years since my son's needs increased - but still managed to catch some that were streamed online and would still follow up interests by email.

I might tell someone to look beyond a GP if they had a non-routine question - but that's because I do not class GP's as experts.

Who has told anyone to ignore experts?
Nobody.

I'm not a big fan of considering GPs to be experts, that is why they are general, but not all GPs agree with vaccines. My cousin is a very experienced GP who does not.

Well no, mimi. Most people simply do not have the ability to do what devilish has suggested in the real world. Your average parent doesn't have the time or the contacts or the cash to do that, and all they can do is ask one or more doctors.

You might think a dr isn't an expert compared to you and your research skillz (and I think you're barking for believing that, but we're each entitled to our opinions), so you tell people not to rely on doctors because they know nothing really and to do their own research.

See how it goes?!

I didn't have the time or contacts when dd1 was born.

I pretty damn quickly had to make the time.

I didn't have the time to research her dietary issues either, but no one else was going to.

I didn't have time to research her OT needs, or her sensory issues.

I didn't have time to research (or deliver) her SALT issues or programmes.

I didn't have the time to set up or deliver her ABA (and other) therapy programmes.

I didn't have the time to research what school choices were available (because you sure as hell do t get given the full list)

I didn't have the time to become an expert in education case law, in order to secure her school place.

I didn't have the time to do a hell of a lot of stuff which I had to make the time for.

Today, I didn't have he time (see all of the above which I still have to find the time for) to make my younger child's birthday cake - but oddly, I didn't take that as an answer either, and it's been done.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make there, Sick. Not bothering to find the time to research something is not a good reason to sign up to a potentially life changing vaccination.

Well no, mimi. Most people simply do not have the ability to do what devilish has suggested in the real world. Your average parent doesn't have the time or the contacts or the cash to do that, and all they can do is ask one or more doctors.

Yep..they spend all their time arguing with anti vaxxers on the internet instead.

Again GoesDown, why are you assuming that GPs/nurses are experts on vaccines when many of them wouldn't claim to be.

You know how I got my contacts? Google. It's a very handy tool if you want to speak to someone from PHE, or the Meningitis Research Foundation, or Bayer, or any other vaccine manufacturer. Give it a try!

time or the contacts or the cash to do that

WTF?

Time - I have a severely disabled child who requires hands on 2:1 care. I was also running my own business in school hours. And two other children who could not be in the same room as my son. Time? What time?

Contacts - google and email. Conferences years ago when I could attend them.

Cash - ha ha ha - I have a severely disabled child and haven't earned enough to pay tax in years. Severely disabled children and working don't tend to go together.

Clearly time in households with disabled children is like the magic stretchy, cover-all DLA, devilish - there's always enough of it to go around

I honestly don't know what planet some posters live on!

It's like DLA clearly

No, without disrespecting your position you most certainly don't, panda. It's not just children who are disabled and need care, for example.

Ah mimi the google queen. Your posts make me laugh out loud, they really do

Oh but I suppose we often get less than 5 hours sleep. So have extra time compared to NT families

Bumbley why do YOU assume a reference to a dr has to be a GP?!

Coldsick - are you seriously saying that NT kids need the same amount of care as those who are severely disabled? Blimey.

:starting to understand why she doesn't see avoiding disability as a big deal:

Oh, I'm well aware of that, Sick, having cared for my terminally ill mother at home until she died (inc intensive hospital visits 50 miles away, major surgery and aftercare, learning medical procedures to enable her to remain at home, and loss of mobility due to advancement of her illness). Oddly, my (and her) research skills were put to good use then too, rather than blindly following what doctors said which meant her quality of life was much improved.

No ffs. Read it again. I am saying it is not just CHILDREN who have disabilities and need care. For example my DM had an incredibly debilitating stroke that ultimately killed her, and following which she could do nothing for herself.