To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

so if every single parent or person who is looking at vaccination takes your advice mimi, and emails those people or rings them, they are going to have time to respond to them all, in-depth? really?

Ah, OK, so let's all sit back and do nothing then. Good advice there OP.

OP, I am not on here giving people advice. I am defending our right to ask questions.

What self appointed experts, Sick?

Posters who have repeatedly said 'do some research, ask some questions, decide what is right for you/your family'? Not really seeing the issue.

I'm not in a bubble. Well, I am in that pretty much all of my life revolves around severely disabled dd1, and people who don't live that type of life really can't get it, however hard they try - the sheer scale of thought and planning even the smallest of things, the level of detail needed, etc. But I'm not in the bubble morphene was talking g about - I am well aware that not everyone has my background (which is probably far from what you may think it is). That fact doesn't change my advice - to read the literature (at the very least the patient information leaflet), think about what it says, and make sure your questions (should you have any) are answered. All questions, not just Ines which doctors/nurses are happy to answer. If the answer is 'I don't know' (which can be a difficult answer to get - it usually follows some bluster, minor annoyance and possibly even slight aggression, dismissal, and frustration - most people aren't very good at admitting when they don't know something they are expected to know), think about whether you want to proceed, or whether you want to do some further research. What is bubble-like about that?

Which experts think that people are like them? The self appointed ones (who don't exist except in your imagination), or the ones you are talking to?

Er that's not what I said, mimi. See - if you can't understand words of one syllable on here, your certainty that you understand stuff online is plain weird. I said, don't assume everyone will get the advice for free. Because an expert might like to answer questions from someone, esp if there's an unusual element such as allergies, but not if s/he is getting that from hundreds of thousands of parents a year. So what do you recommend to everyone when you say ask questions? Because if everyone follows your method, it's simply impossible and impractical. And you're now saying that actually it's not as easy as looking stuff up online after all, so what are you suggesting people do when they "ask questions"?

Years ago, I was involved in the large class action re. MMR vaccine. Had the action happened, it may have come to light what the (2000? ) families involved were told by the lawyers. As they collated the data of vaccine damaged kids, they realised that some of the damage was done in clusters.

My own son was one of a group of about 6 kids vaccinated from the same batch, who went on to become autistic. We never met and weren't even aware of the other 5 families. And no-one knew this until the lawyers started collecting vaccine batch #s.

What this implies is - there may have been storage protocol problems, OR certain batches of the drug were indeed, somehow affected. Although maybe only kids with a certain predisposition or something else going on, went on to develop a problem. IIRC, one of the batches at least was up in the 20s.

IIRC, the dodgy vaccine was from 2 different manufacturers. Government had paid for and stockpiled this, so they weren't about to advertised that some batches might be affected. Or some clinics were doing something wrong. Interestingly - on a totally unrelated matter - the GP who ran the practice where my sons were vaccinated, was later struck off.

Older kids vaccinated from the same batch seemed less likely to have any effect. So the etiology was something to do with the neurological development (possibly?) of the younger kids.

I am not into conspiracy theories but inthis case, many people aren't aware that isolated batches of vaccine had clusters of allegedly damaged children. One of the first things Blair did as PM was cut off Legal Aid for the families involved. I was and remain a lifelong Labour supporter.

Where would you find these several experts? You'd be lucky to be referred to one, let alone 'several'

Ds1 had a 12 month wait for his lady neuro appointment (by which time we'd found out what was going on as he'd had several 5 minute tonic clonics - may have been avoided if we'd seen him a year before I guess).

He had a 7 month wait to see a SLT whose office was in the same corridor as his classroom.

BTW, the statistical odds of a whole cluster of kids attending the same clinic, getting the same batch of vaccine, being suddenly autistic - when late onset autism was always the rarest form of autism - were low.

Joffrey - iirc the mmr2 was implicated (I may have that wrong - but have heard about the brand effect).

It was outrageous that legal aid was withdrawn.

Panda - they exist on this very thread. People dismissing doctors; people saying medical studies are easy to read (which I think is dangerous and even unfair for those who aren't educated or who might not speak the language the papers are written in as a first language, but who still worry about their kids just as much as someone with a PhD). They also exist in droves on the original fb thread; it's actually been frightening to see how many people think this way. This morning they are high fiving Japan for not giving the MMR, but then also going on to say how awful the single jabs are, which of course Japan does instead of the MMR

The word "stupid" has been bandied around a lot above - do you feel stupid, are you too stupid, I can see why you're too stupid to read papers etc. It doesn't bother me one jot because I know I'm not, and have the multiple degrees and job to prove it. But it's ridiculous word to use in the context of things that can be interpreted in different ways. It goes again to the fact that people thinking they know best often don't!

Joffrey - why didn't it fight? Was it purely due to loss of legal aid or was there also legal advice not to pursue or something? Totally agree it's shocking that legal aid was withdrawn for so many people.

I was outraged at the time as the lawyers told us we had one of the most clear cut cases of all the hundreds they'd seen! And I had loads of documentation to prove my son had been cognitively, emotionally, linguistically 'normal' for want of a better word, as I had been studying for a higher degree in early child development, specialising in psycholinguistics, and as the only student with a baby of the right age - we'd run every standardised test known to humanity on him! We had been in the US, and so he was vaccinated slightly off schedule, when we returned to the UK so was a baby but slightly older than most when they got the first MMR.

I am not anti vaccinations - but I am anti that particular vaccination.

Not a brand effect though as IIRC two brands were implicated. I wondered about storage protocols..?

Son stopped speaking the day he had the vaccination and never spoke again until he was 4 or 5.

We didn't fight it because we couldn't afford to. I had to give up my career in teaching - and the MA/PhD I was doing. We were subsisting on one low wage, and eventually, the derisory Carer's Allowance - as, I suspect, were most of the damaged kids' families. If I could have afforded it, I would have sued. We never talk about it at home, ever. It seems like a lifetime ago, now.

If I see threads like this I will sometimes jump in, just for the sake of balance. As a teacher I used to be big on the 'herd immunity' thing. And I still get it, I really do. But no longer, truly care and given the same choices again, knowing what I know now - I'd never let a child of mine have that particular vaccine, sod the herd. The individual vaccinations - no problem. I had another 3 kids after him and none had the MMR. And again, I couldn't afford to pay for the single vaccinations. I guess hundreds of other families found themselves in the same situation.

I am trying to dredge it all from my memory but pondering a bit more I think MMR2 may have been the okay one and it was the other two (which contained Urabe strain mumps - mmr2 was jeryl lynn) that were problematic. That would tie in with what you have said (I came back to write this before reading your latest post). Will have to try and look again I know it has been mentioned previously as I remember reading it.

Those two brands were of course withdrawn anyway as they kept causing aseptic meningitis.

You know, Devilish, at this great remove in time, I have no clue any more. We had all the paperwork and I used to edit for a medical/educational charity so I did tonnes of research and spoke to all kinds of people on the phone; consultants, immunologists and even the since discredited Dr Wakefield.

At one point, I was researching for a piece I wanted to write but the founders of the charity got wind and I was told in no uncertain terms, I couldn't write it. So it's not entirely conspiracy theory to say people were gagged from speaking out - even at the time. I researched a lot and used the fact I was editing as an excuse to get people on the phone. But I have forgotten it all, now. Several house moves later as well, so am fairly certain I have no paperwork left.

Oh I know people were gagged. I spoke to a local private GP about getting a single measles jab for my younger 2. (Or actually just ds2 as ds3 had immune red flags). Anyway he listened, said he understood my reasoning and asked me to give him
a couple of weeks to think about it & talk to colleagues.

He came back and said that while he completely understood my reasons he was concerned that if he started offering private single jabs he would be struck off!!! And he wanted to try and work from within the system to change things rather than be forced outside.

So there we have it. I looked into getting ds2 a single again a couple of years ago (he was about to go off performing in a 2000 seat theatre in a country with known measles outbreaks and was going to be flying back and forth) and just couldn't do it. We were practically house bound at the time due to ds1 and no way could we get to London.

I hope your son is doing okay now joffrey

Joffrey. Utterly outrageous that a so-called labour government withdrew funding. nobody should be left without access to justice.

He is doing great! He is at university. He has a lot of support there. Took him a long time as he left school with no qualifications, and still struggling to read but things fell into place when he went to college. He is happy, has a beautiful girlfriend, and is surrounded by brilliant friends. When he was four, we had no idea what his future might be, as he couldn't speak, screamed all day etc. He has atypical autism and a couple of other conditions.

We have asthma in the family - son's grandma died of it - and at the time, I remember government leaflets and even posters that day in the GP's clinic, saying a family history of asthma might be a contraindication. I knew better, of course, and decided 'herd immunity' was more important. Son paid the price. INterestingly, when the class action was going on, the lawyers were trying to trace copies of those leaflets/posters but it was denied that the government had ever said it was a contraindication (We're talking around 1995). And who keeps old doctors' surgery leaflets?

A consultant paediatrician told me once that the death figures for measles the government quoted in their lit, to scare people into going for MMR, were actually taken from a highly disadvantaged immigrant community, only recently arrived from the Third World - in Dublin. But quoted in such a way as to imply it was the general UK population who had those stats. She was livid.

I'm pleased for you all Joffrey.

As nick Hornby said way back in 2002 (in a guardian article which is still relevant imo - I won't tell you the number of battles I am juggling at the moment on behalf of my son - all unnecessary if the various agencies would just do their hobs) - if it's so safe why are these bastards lying to us.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2002/feb/10/publichealth5?client=safari

Goes, if you take the 'correct advice' and have the rubella vaccine in childhood then (if you don't believe there's a flaw in the schedule) you would be immune in adulthood and other people's immune status wouldn't matter.

Re experts, you seem to assume anyone with a medical qualification is an expert on vaccines and that people should rely on the information that they get from them but , as has already been pointed out, many of them wouldn't claim to be experts at all.

He came back and said that while he completely understood my reasons he was concerned that if he started offering private single jabs he would be struck off!!!

And this is what the experts have to deal with too. They are not allowed to think or practice outside the box.

That's true. I have come across GP's livid at how their hands are tied re statins for example. They are told how they must prescribe rather than be allowed to use their clinical judgment.

OP, you've been outclassed. I know it, anyone reading it knows it, you know it too.

Great thread (once you extract OP's posts, which is easily done as I have customised MN settings to highlight them in colour) and can happily scroll on by.

So nice to recognise posters (I think though names are changed) from SN board from a while back. I was a SN board person too (mainly lurker). Very sorry to read of some of you and your children in such challenging circumstances though. Not dissimilar to my own, unfortunately.

Anyway, crack on OP with the flogging of your dead horse.

Ovenchips, that's a somewhat immature post. The fact is that posters who agree wholeheartedly with OP have made their point and moved on.

I agree, I know others have made their points in agreement with OP's stance. And they have done it better than her and much less rudely - and I am not criticising them (or you). Which is why I only mentioned the OP being outclassed. Because she has been!